Snoopy
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I think the response of both communities as a whole to the recent murders by the "Real IRA" shows that yes, the conflict is over. Don't you?
s.
Medals of honor too christian?
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I think the response of both communities as a whole to the recent murders by the "Real IRA" shows that yes, the conflict is over. Don't you?
s.
Snoopy
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Its easy to sit at our computers testiculating as we pass judgement on others and take the moral high ground. But unless we have been there and experienced what they are going through thats all it is testiculating
No use discussing paedophilia if we haven't been there and experienced it then.
s.
GlorytoGod
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by all means discus I have no objections to that.
citizenzen
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Its easy to sit at our computers testiculating as we pass judgement on others and take the moral high ground. But unless we have been there and experienced what they are going through thats all it is testiculating
I think you've just described virtually every post in a forum.
Let's see... we all sit behind computers... can not experience what other people experience (only what we experience)... pass judgement (just like you're doing GtG)...
Yup. We're all a bunch of testiculators! (whatever that is)
GlorytoGod
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Janz
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Paladin,
You have a remarkable way of describing the experiences and realities of a soldier. Most soldiers I know are not eager to kill but they see their role as defending their country and in the USA, The Constitution. More and more our troops are being used as peace keepers rather than killing machines or tools of oppression.
Yes, there are both good and bad human beings in the Military and their motives for serving are not always pure..some just want to do their time so they can get their education paid for by Uncle Sam and other benefits ie health care.
I am all for a nonviolent diplomatic approach with the strength of the Military behind those words. However, I also believe in defending myself when attacked. When I realized that, I parted company with those pacifists who would surrender their own lives before they would kill another human being.
Has anyone here ever seen the 1991 film called Black Robe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Robe_(film)
Based upon a historical fiction book by Irish-Canadian author Brian Moore, the film chronicles a young Jesuit's journey to establish a mission in 17th century New France among the Hurons; where he hopes to "reap a mighty harvest of the lost souls of the savages." One reviewer stated: "The film attempts to set aside erroneous but persistent characterizations of First Peoples in Canada. Both the novel and film were well researched and provide one of the more accurate and compassionate cinematic portrayals of the people and the period."
I recommend both the film and the book. The Hurons do "convert" to the Christian faith and the priest convinces them to lay down their weapons and live in peace with their neighbors, the Iroquois, as Jesus will protect them. Needless to say, the Iroquois wiped out the Hurons and the Jesuits closed down the mission.
I hate all wars and I hate the killing of the innocents. I wish to God, that all humanity would lay down their weapons of mass destruction and maybe some day that will happen. We all need to work toward peace but I guess I just see a need for defending ourselves until that day arrives.
You have a remarkable way of describing the experiences and realities of a soldier. Most soldiers I know are not eager to kill but they see their role as defending their country and in the USA, The Constitution. More and more our troops are being used as peace keepers rather than killing machines or tools of oppression.
Yes, there are both good and bad human beings in the Military and their motives for serving are not always pure..some just want to do their time so they can get their education paid for by Uncle Sam and other benefits ie health care.
I am all for a nonviolent diplomatic approach with the strength of the Military behind those words. However, I also believe in defending myself when attacked. When I realized that, I parted company with those pacifists who would surrender their own lives before they would kill another human being.
Has anyone here ever seen the 1991 film called Black Robe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Robe_(film)
Based upon a historical fiction book by Irish-Canadian author Brian Moore, the film chronicles a young Jesuit's journey to establish a mission in 17th century New France among the Hurons; where he hopes to "reap a mighty harvest of the lost souls of the savages." One reviewer stated: "The film attempts to set aside erroneous but persistent characterizations of First Peoples in Canada. Both the novel and film were well researched and provide one of the more accurate and compassionate cinematic portrayals of the people and the period."
I recommend both the film and the book. The Hurons do "convert" to the Christian faith and the priest convinces them to lay down their weapons and live in peace with their neighbors, the Iroquois, as Jesus will protect them. Needless to say, the Iroquois wiped out the Hurons and the Jesuits closed down the mission.
I hate all wars and I hate the killing of the innocents. I wish to God, that all humanity would lay down their weapons of mass destruction and maybe some day that will happen. We all need to work toward peace but I guess I just see a need for defending ourselves until that day arrives.
Francis king
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well, I wasn't going to say what I really felt, as I was trying to be mindful of the feelings of others but I have changed my mind...
the reality of the situation is; unless someone is actually attacking you, you do not have the right to hurt them, simply because you do not agree with them socially, culturally, politically, et cetera... we have laws about it...
you can call it war but I call it murder. Murdering people, human beings, because, what? because your boss tells you it's okay?
Because the government says its okay?
Is it okay?
The enemy. Who is he, really? The person you are schooled to hate? And when you look down the barrel of your gun, what do you see? The face of some stupid dumb ass like yourself. Neither of you want to go home in a box. You cannot possibly hate each other as neither of you know the other. How can you hate someone you don't even know? If you knew each other you might even like each other.
But, you are a poorly paid mercenary. The government pays you to kill people the state doesn't like. The government pays you to be a murderer. The goverment pays you to murder people who threaten the elite; the people with money.
You do not fight for a noble cause and nor is the fight even yours.
You joined the army because you are a) poor, and the army gets you away from your fat and dumb mother and ugly siblings and a life of poverty and welfare, or b) because you are rich, and you like the idea of bossing other people around and shipping the poor off to get killed while you sit in a cosy office in a nice suit.
The army grooms children to think war and violence is not a repugnant thing but a career, something exciting, and then it more often than not manhandles them.
an entry level soldier's wage in the British army? £13,377.
Working in a supermarket would give you the same wage, and at least in the supermarket nobody is shooting at you. There are no anti-personnel mines in the soup aisle.
How long does it take to get to the average graduate wage of 23K? see for yourself... all of this is from the british army website...
RANGE 1
RANGE 1
.....Promotion on an Army-wide average is about once every 3 years but there are variations dependent upon cap badge and specialisation/CEG. Promotion on an Army-wide average is about once every 3 years but there are variations dependent upon cap badge and specialisation/CEG.
the last link is from army.mod site...
13K sounds like lots of money when you're young, (between the ages of 16-19 years old, most new army recruits) but its not, not for what they're asking you to do.
the reality of the situation is; unless someone is actually attacking you, you do not have the right to hurt them, simply because you do not agree with them socially, culturally, politically, et cetera... we have laws about it...
you can call it war but I call it murder. Murdering people, human beings, because, what? because your boss tells you it's okay?
Because the government says its okay?
Is it okay?
The enemy. Who is he, really? The person you are schooled to hate? And when you look down the barrel of your gun, what do you see? The face of some stupid dumb ass like yourself. Neither of you want to go home in a box. You cannot possibly hate each other as neither of you know the other. How can you hate someone you don't even know? If you knew each other you might even like each other.
But, you are a poorly paid mercenary. The government pays you to kill people the state doesn't like. The government pays you to be a murderer. The goverment pays you to murder people who threaten the elite; the people with money.
You do not fight for a noble cause and nor is the fight even yours.
You joined the army because you are a) poor, and the army gets you away from your fat and dumb mother and ugly siblings and a life of poverty and welfare, or b) because you are rich, and you like the idea of bossing other people around and shipping the poor off to get killed while you sit in a cosy office in a nice suit.
The army grooms children to think war and violence is not a repugnant thing but a career, something exciting, and then it more often than not manhandles them.
an entry level soldier's wage in the British army? £13,377.
Working in a supermarket would give you the same wage, and at least in the supermarket nobody is shooting at you. There are no anti-personnel mines in the soup aisle.
How long does it take to get to the average graduate wage of 23K? see for yourself... all of this is from the british army website...
RANGE 1
Lance Corporal
Levels 5 - 9 only
Private
Levels 1 - 7 only
Level 9£28,372£23,755Level 8£27,051£22,924Level 7£25,887£21,920Level 6£24,751£21,021Level 5£23,603£20,178Level 4£21,346£19,146Level 3£19,853£17,605Level 2£17,982£17,143Level 1£16,681£16,681 Levels 5 - 9 only
Private
Levels 1 - 7 only
New Entrant Rate
£13,377RANGE 1
Lance Corporal
Levels 5 - 9 only
Private
Levels 1 - 7 only
Level 9£28,372£23,755Level 8£27,051£22,924Level 7£25,887£21,920Level 6£24,751£21,021Level 5£23,603£20,178Level 4£21,346£19,146Level 3£19,853£17,605Level 2£17,982£17,143Level 1£16,681£16,681 Levels 5 - 9 only
Private
Levels 1 - 7 only
New Entrant Rate
£13,377.....Promotion on an Army-wide average is about once every 3 years but there are variations dependent upon cap badge and specialisation/CEG. Promotion on an Army-wide average is about once every 3 years but there are variations dependent upon cap badge and specialisation/CEG.
the last link is from army.mod site...
13K sounds like lots of money when you're young, (between the ages of 16-19 years old, most new army recruits) but its not, not for what they're asking you to do.
citizenzen
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Today is Memorial Day, where in America we honor soldiers who have fought and died in our wars.
In the newspaper editorial page there was a cartoon showing Uncle Sam bowed over a soldiers grave with the caption "No greater love".
The message being that there is no greater act of love than laying down one's life for one's country. But couldn't the same could be said for laying down one's life for one's God?
Yet I think most Americans would be outraged over a cartoon memorializing a suicide-bombing jihadist, while I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between the two.
Just a thought.
"Happy" Memorial Day.
In the newspaper editorial page there was a cartoon showing Uncle Sam bowed over a soldiers grave with the caption "No greater love".
The message being that there is no greater act of love than laying down one's life for one's country. But couldn't the same could be said for laying down one's life for one's God?
Yet I think most Americans would be outraged over a cartoon memorializing a suicide-bombing jihadist, while I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between the two.
Just a thought.
"Happy" Memorial Day.
Snoopy
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citizenzen
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Sorry Snoopy. Your popcorns going to go stale. Nobody wants to touch this one but me: the last brave, daring soul in this forum.
Oh, and you... you're a brave soul too.
greymare
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Hardly brave or daring. considering your opinions to the contrary.
citizenzen
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Welcome back GM. I was wondering where you been. I was hoping that last comment might get this conversation going again... this forum has been pretty quiet lately.
So any thoughts on my previous post? Is there any difference between a patriot sacrificing his life for his country (which some depict as "great love") and a zealot sacrificing his life for his God?
There are probably plenty of cartoons depicting exactly what you say. Why would a paper print them?
Your newspapers goal is to sell newspapers, not dispense news. It is to sell advertising, not provide information. It is not a public service it is a business. So if they were to print something that was counter to the beliefs of their subscribers it would have a negative affect on their bottom line.
Now again, there are anarchist or radical papers that will print what you speak of and not print the one you saw... because of their readership.
As for me, the only difference between a patriot and a terrorist is whose side you are on.
btw do you know most papers operate on a percentage, for many it is 50/50 50% ads, 50% content. You can cut up your paper and see what the percentage is...and check it periodically you'll find it quite accurate. I know writers who lost stories, they didn't get printed because the ads didn't sell. If it bleeds it leads... We all claim we want less violence and mayhem in our papers, tv shows and media...but that is exactly what we watch...
Janz
What's Amatta U
I agree with wil. I understand that a "terrorist" is the other's side freedom fighter. I believe that we should all have the freedom to speak our opinions and practice our religious beliefs or NOT as we see fit. The United States is a secular nation where freedom of religion and freedom from religious rule is practiced. I know many Conservative Christian Religious Right types feel the opposite as they would like to see the USA be a Christian Nation. I disagree and I firmly believe in the rule of secular law even though I call myself a Universalist Christian..I know that all my former Christian friends think that I am not a "true" Christian but thankfully they just avoid me and I am NOT in danger of having my head cut off for my heretic ways (as was in the past when Church and State ruled as one in Europe). I guess I am watching too much of the Tudors about Henry the 8th's way of disposing of those who disagreed with him..or maybe because Jonathan Rhys-Meyers is just a hottie. Love the Irish and yes, at one time, I did support the IRA.
That's all for now... folks.
Janz
What's Amatta U
More thoughts from The Mind of Mahatma Gandhi:
I WOULD risk violence a thousand times rather than risk the emasculation of a whole race.
Violence the Choice
I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor.
But I believe that nonviolence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. Forgiveness adorns a soldier...But abstinence is forgiveness only when there is the power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature....
But I do not believe India to be helpless....I do not believe myself to be a helpless creature....Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
We do want to drive out the best in the man, but we do not want on that account to emasculate him. And in the process of finding his own status, the beast in him is bound now and again to put up his ugly appearance.
The world is not entirely governed by logic. Life itself involves some kind of violence and we have to choose the path of least violence.
Self-defence by Violence
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.
Self-defence....is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation.
Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.
for more see: Between Cowardice and Violence
I WOULD risk violence a thousand times rather than risk the emasculation of a whole race.
Violence the Choice
I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor.
But I believe that nonviolence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. Forgiveness adorns a soldier...But abstinence is forgiveness only when there is the power to punish; it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed from a helpless creature....
But I do not believe India to be helpless....I do not believe myself to be a helpless creature....Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
We do want to drive out the best in the man, but we do not want on that account to emasculate him. And in the process of finding his own status, the beast in him is bound now and again to put up his ugly appearance.
The world is not entirely governed by logic. Life itself involves some kind of violence and we have to choose the path of least violence.
Self-defence by Violence
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.
Self-defence....is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation.
Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.
for more see: Between Cowardice and Violence
Janz
What's Amatta U
And about Memorial Day here in the USA.. Here is another very different viewpoint written by a guest columnist from our local newspaper: Ralf Zimmermann, a former tank battalion commander and decorated Desert Storm veteran. He is a leadership consultant and writes and speaks on diverse military and political topics.
"When reading first-hand accounts of combat soldiers and civilians in war through the ages, you quickly realize that it's not the exciting adventure as presented in many Hollywood movies. War isn't merely about heroism and glory - it's primarily about suffering, hardships and ultimately - death. But despite its immense cruelty, war has remained a part of human interaction, even in our so-called civilized times. And as despicable as it is, one has to admit that war is sometimes unavoidable to address evil in mankind and to spur human evolution to the next level.
As the son of a German WWII Panzer trooper, I also attempt to understand war and its consequences from all sides of the spectrum. From such a perspective, I believe it is essential to recognize that the ultimate sacrifice in war can only be justified if the conflict ends with a lasting peace. And building lasting peace requires the willingness to overcome hatred and propagandistic beliefs and to replace them with cooperation and ultimately - some sort of friendship."
http://www.gazette.com/opinion/war-54712-day-sacrifice.html
Wow..three in a row. I must be going for a personal best.
"When reading first-hand accounts of combat soldiers and civilians in war through the ages, you quickly realize that it's not the exciting adventure as presented in many Hollywood movies. War isn't merely about heroism and glory - it's primarily about suffering, hardships and ultimately - death. But despite its immense cruelty, war has remained a part of human interaction, even in our so-called civilized times. And as despicable as it is, one has to admit that war is sometimes unavoidable to address evil in mankind and to spur human evolution to the next level.
As the son of a German WWII Panzer trooper, I also attempt to understand war and its consequences from all sides of the spectrum. From such a perspective, I believe it is essential to recognize that the ultimate sacrifice in war can only be justified if the conflict ends with a lasting peace. And building lasting peace requires the willingness to overcome hatred and propagandistic beliefs and to replace them with cooperation and ultimately - some sort of friendship."
http://www.gazette.com/opinion/war-54712-day-sacrifice.html
Wow..three in a row. I must be going for a personal best.
citizenzen
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If sacrificing for one's country is an act of "great love", why do soldiers commonly return home with post-traumatic stress disorder?
nativeastral
fluffy future
ah but don't all great loves end in post traumatic syndrome? only psycotics and neurotics take it a bridge too far as forgiveness seems to be the hardest to achieve -- where are the real mediators? politicians do a measly job and religious leaders cannot seem to practice what they were inaugurated to preach [in a world stage scenario they are looking out for their own 'status']
[in a world stage scenario they are looking out for their own 'status']