Garden of Eden

The Serpent and the Tree (Caduceus) are forever entwined, they represent the LOGOS in its purely Dualistic sense. The Tree being the growing, mutable, individualized Self while the reptile being the symbol of the immutable, unchanging Collective Unconsciousness.

We are not in disagreement, the "fall" is certainly for me into unconsciousness... I think that Adam and Eve were enlightened prior to eating the apple - utterly conscious. I could perhaps also agree that the Logos is the nature of pure consciousness perhaps - then, it is a Christian term and it says the Logos is God. Certainly, God is the nature of consciousness for me.

I don't see much of a point in the idea of the Fall in something as simple and all too human as the idea of dangling candy in front of a child just to see what happens, but I do agree with you that this Fall is metaphoric for Individuality, Individuism, and I say Freedom of Will (something the Abrahamic god was not ready to let Mankind have just yet).

I would ask whether you think the scene really needs a point other than to show when individuality and independence has began? What else is the story really conveying?
 
I would ask whether you think the scene really needs a point other than to show when individuality and independence has began? What else is the story really conveying?
Ok, I gotcha, sorry for reading too far into what you said before :p

Much of Christianity would blame The Original Sin upon the incident in the Garden. There are also Christian sects such as the Gnostics that would say the God of the Garden of Eden is the Demiurge and not the True Benevolent God.

Just throwing some ideas out there.
 
Ok, I gotcha, sorry for reading too far into what you said before :p

Much of Christianity would blame The Original Sin upon the incident in the Garden. There are also Christian sects such as the Gnostics that would say the God of the Garden of Eden is the Demiurge and not the True Benevolent God.

Just throwing some ideas out there.
Question: Why is the slaying of Apep in the Duat often depicted by the Ished tree?
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-serpent-in-the-garden-12786-4.html#post236151
 
Much of Christianity would blame The Original Sin upon the incident in the Garden. There are also Christian sects such as the Gnostics that would say the God of the Garden of Eden is the Demiurge and not the True Benevolent God.

They need an Original Sin to explain what Jesus is saving man from, without creating an illness you cannot cure it... as for Demiurge, it seems this whole concept is not even monotheistic, so it is strange for me that an Abrahamic branch would push this. It is because they see such difference between the Old Testament and the three years of Jesus' ministry. It is really a symptom of dual thinking, and for me quite an absurd concept.

I have tried to show that Jesus' actions towards the fig tree - cursing and ultimately killing an innocent tree, causing it to whither - as well as his rage inside the Temple are entirely consistent with what is shown in the Old Testament. Of course, Christians disagree and try to explain it away. In reality, God and Jesus' seeming anger is just compassion on its head, it is the same thing. The dual mind cannot understand this though, so they try to pull the poles apart...
 
To be clear, I am not saying there isn't an illness... for me, the illness is duality - they are now dividing the world into a fundamental competition between good and evil. I cannot agree with the Christian that sin is the illness because this is simply creating more hostility between them.

At the same time, sin is also from the same root as serpent, again the root means "self". It is mind that splits reality into a duality, and it is ego that chooses - self is just another word for ego here.

For the Christian, though, sin is evil and they want to go to the other pole, utterly into goodness... it is not possible because good and evil are concepts - evil is simply the absence of good. It is insane to fight against something which doesn't even exist in the first place. For me, it is exactly like trying to fight with your own shadow - just bizarre.

Again, consider light and dark, perhaps the most useful example: if you want to get rid of darkness, do you fight against it? No, you just bring in light. Can darkness fight with light, rid the space of the light you have just added? Darkness doesn't exist at all, it is just the absence of light. We have created a personification of darkness to fight against - the Devil - but it is just crazy. Simply by fighting, we are blocking light, the very violence is not permitting love to shine.
 
To be clear, I am not saying there isn't an illness... for me, the illness is duality - they are now dividing the world into a fundamental competition between good and evil. I cannot agree with the Christian that sin is the illness because this is simply creating more hostility between them.

At the same time, sin is also from the same root as serpent, again the root means "self". It is mind that splits reality into a duality, and it is ego that chooses - self is just another word for ego here.

For the Christian, though, sin is evil and they want to go to the other pole, utterly into goodness... it is not possible because good and evil are concepts - evil is simply the absence of good. It is insane to fight against something which doesn't even exist in the first place. For me, it is exactly like trying to fight with your own shadow - just bizarre.

Again, consider light and dark, perhaps the most useful example: if you want to get rid of darkness, do you fight against it? No, you just bring in light. Can darkness fight with light, rid the space of the light you have just added? Darkness doesn't exist at all, it is just the absence of light. We have created a personification of darkness to fight against - the Devil - but it is just crazy. Simply by fighting, we are blocking light, the very violence is not permitting love to shine.
Actually, before there was Light there was Darkness, it is within this Darkness that Light is 'permitted' to exist.

Monotheism loves to play Good against Evil, Light against Dark, Man against Woman, when in fact there does not exist a pure opposite, as Hermetics would explain, there exists polar extremes of the Same Thing.

I would like to re post something I posted on another thread here, it seems relevant.


The Original Sin as the tradition of the Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetypal structure embedded deep within our unconsciousness. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.

We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.

It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.

The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'. The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.

- from a lecture delivered at a meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine by ROBERT EISLER - First published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4
Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London
 
Actually, before there was Light there was Darkness, it is within this Darkness that Light is 'permitted' to exist.

Monotheism loves to play Good against Evil, Light against Dark, Man against Woman, when in fact there does not exist a pure opposite, as Hermetics would explain, there exists polar extremes of the Same Thing.

For me, God is light, so in my understanding you are saying something came before the source which is illogical. If something came before the source, it is no longer that it is the source, it is created itself.

I agree though, all duality is only perceived, it is not valid - I have tried to say this through the statement about diameters, we live on the periphery though so it seems there is great distance between the extremes. Language perpetuates this, it causes mind to split things because we have defined differences between the poles. This is all the disease, it is why I say truth is beyond mind, because mind will go on splitting the world into absolutes.

Your quote is just strange to me, so I will not comment on it - other than to say this is the sort of thing that happens when mind is allowed to run too much.
 
For me, God is light, so in my understanding you are saying something came before the source which is illogical. If something came before the source, it is no longer that it is the source, it is created itself.
Of course for me Light is Lucifer for the Word Lucifer actually means Light Bringer. What is interesting that you said, is
"If something came before the source, it is no longer that it is the source, it is created itself."
And indeed I would go as far to say that the Christian god may not be the Source any more than you or I are the Source! Of course there is the age old question as to who/what Created 'god', but beyond that concept is the many Eastern philosophies and Metaphysics that speak of a Collective Unconsciousness that we are all a part of, that our Higher Self upon reflecting on itself becomes Conscious of itself and is separated from its Higher Self, this separation begins the gradual descent into a material existence and a lower Self.

Religion seems to be always trying to return our Lower Self to our Higher Self. I believe this is exactly what Mankind is endlessly endeavoring to understand and placate.
 
Of course for me Light is Lucifer for the Word Lucifer actually means Light Bringer.

Then, for you, when you see me stating "God", simply read Lucifer. What you call it is utterly irrelevant, I simply refer to the Ultimate, the Source of all being.

There is an interesting concept in Advaita called "Ishwara" - this is God or Brahman presenting itself as part of Maya. In Buddhism, Brahma is used instead, and they depict a delusional being that believes himself the Creator. It is naught but another delusion to be overcome on the path to Nirvana. It is certainly interesting to consider whether the Abrahamic God is merely another similar being that thinks himself the Ultimate.

I do not think the Ultimate need intervene because we are all doing his work all the time anyway, we are not separate from it - cannot be - so if it wants us to do something it needn't instruct us to do so, it simply sets that situation in motion and leads us to it.

indeed I would go as far to say that the Christian god may not be the Source any more than you or I are the Source!

I am not sure what this gets us, it can lead to nothing but conjecture and theories. For me, the Torah is naught but a book of devices the Jews have used to approach the Ultimate, same with the Gospel, Koran, Gita, Dharmapada - these are all the books of particular groups utilized in seeking the Absolute. I am sure your own belief system has such a central book as well.

Of course there is the age old question as to who/what Created 'god', but beyond that concept is the many Eastern philosophies and Metaphysics that speak of a Collective Unconsciousness that we are all a part of, that our Higher Self upon reflecting on itself becomes Conscious of itself and is separated from its Higher Self, this separation begins the gradual descent into a material existence and a lower Self.

The East does not talk about a collective unconscious at all, they speak of a collective consciousness as being the source - brahman or dharmakaya are some of the names given. The Higher Self is the self which is not inflicted by Maya, whereas the Lower Self considers itself distinct. Ultimately, Buddha teaches that the truth is that of no-self, Higher Self still retains ego or Self.

Enlightenment is exactly consciousness becoming aware of itself, in this ego or atman (individual soul) dies completely. You have now returned home...

Religion seems to be always trying to return our Lower Self to our Higher Self. I believe this is exactly what Mankind is endlessly endeavoring to understand and placate.

Indeed, this is the point of religion.
 
Science says energy cannot be taken away, it can only change form. It also shows all matter, including living things, are merely dense energy. The Source of that energy is what I reference when I say "God", it is the only real being and we are a part of that. It must be so, otherwise the Whole is split - if God is omnipresent, how can there be a split? To split it must not be present everywhere, at least in the space between the pieces there is no God. It is simply that we are a particular form of that energy, even what we perceive as space is just another aspect of that energy though, it cannot be otherwise.
 
It is also interesting to look at the names of God in the Abrahamic traditions:

Yehweh in the Torah - this means "I am that I am"
Allah in the Quran - this means "Isness"

They are both pointing to something very important, and the Hindu's point to the same when they describe Brahman. It tells us that God is the whole, it is all that is, the only true doer - this is something all the major faiths I think can agree on.

"God" is not a name, it is a word similar to divine, it is a term to reference the ultimate without using the name - it is like calling a person "Human" instead of stating the name, whereas you have given him a nickname. I might suggest that Yehweh and Allah are nicknames as well, all words are human invention - it doesn't even make sense that God would need words in his original state.
 
Great discussing this with you Lunitik, you have brought rational ideas to the table and have made me think.

I think we are going in the same direction but just use synonyms for the same things.
On that note I will digress, and look forward to your comment.

My belief is that what the World refers to as 'God' (or whatever 'nickname' we wish to call this) is the Objective Universe, a non-corporeal space filled with Laws and Principles set into place not by a Great Architect but rather through Ordered Structure by way of vibration and mathematical formula (Cymatics, Fibonacci, Golden Mean etc.)

It is we that empower these Laws by placing them higher then ourselves.

Then there is the Subjective Universe, our Higher Self, our Consciousness, not One Consciousness from which we are all a tributary of, but rather an Individual Consciousness and a Primordial ocean of Creators, each of us, in this material existence and story.
 
Lunatik wrote above:

"This disagreement is exactly why I have left the Baha'i Faith."

Thanks for your post I don't think a reply to your remarks about Baha'u'llah would be appropriate for this thread, but I would be interested in when you considered yourself a Baha'i?:)

It's true though Baha'is are not Sufis.
 
Great discussing this with you Lunitik, you have brought rational ideas to the table and have made me think.

I think we are going in the same direction but just use synonyms for the same things.
On that note I will digress, and look forward to your comment.

My belief is that what the World refers to as 'God' (or whatever 'nickname' we wish to call this) is the Objective Universe, a non-corporeal space filled with Laws and Principles set into place not by a Great Architect but rather through Ordered Structure by way of vibration and mathematical formula (Cymatics, Fibonacci, Golden Mean etc.)

It is we that empower these Laws by placing them higher then ourselves.

Then there is the Subjective Universe, our Higher Self, our Consciousness, not One Consciousness from which we are all a tributary of, but rather an Individual Consciousness and a Primordial ocean of Creators, each of us, in this material existence and story.

What you describe is exactly the roadblock stopping you from knowing God...

I believe you had said previously that you accept non-dualism, oneness? Object and subject is another duality, inner and outer is another duality, spirit and matter is another duality.

The Bible states "You have your being in Christ, and he in you" - now, the Bible says Christ and the Father are one, and the trinities purpose is essentially to explain the same. You may not be Christian, but this is a very important understanding to wrap your head around. In this understanding, you too are not a division from God... to believe yourself distinct is another form of maya, delusion. It is saying that God is everything outside you and everything inside you, the dualities I listed earlier are simply false in reality - all is one.
 
Ok, I gotcha, sorry for reading too far into what you said before :p

Much of Christianity would blame The Original Sin upon the incident in the Garden. There are also Christian sects such as the Gnostics that would say the God of the Garden of Eden is the Demiurge and not the True Benevolent God.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

OK, throwing another idea out there: wasn't Neith (a goddess) considered to be a Demiurge?
 
O.K...that was easy wasn't it... Here's hoping you'll find your Garden of Eden.:)

It is my current situation, there is no reason for hope...

It is rare that the easiest option is the best option, without strife you gain nothing of value. If it is the case that everything is simply given, why bother creating existence in the first place? There is nothing interesting in that... you must go on the journey, but the current faiths simply try to live their life by the insights of someone elses journey. We go on looking at maps and pretending we know the place we are looking at.
 
Back
Top