Am I a Christian?

I welcome active participants here. You're allowed to have your faith and discuss it, as does every member have a chance to discuss theirs. What isn't allowed here is proselytizing and trying to convert people to a certain faith, or harassing other people's views. If the dialogue and discussion leads nowhere and people are still thinking and feeling the way they did before, that's fine. But the dialogue and discussion needs to be respectful. I encourage you to review the Code of Conduct.

I view this forum, as others have noted in the last few days, as a spot where interfaith ideas really are discussed across the spectrum, in the hopes of providing insights that benefit everyone. We're not interested in creating a new syncretic belief structure here.
Can I ask you "where" you see me as "proselytizing"? Strange to have to ask on my first thread after becoming a member, I kind of get the impression Ive broke some forum rule but it is not being directly relayed to me properly? Are you accusing me of something? Sorry to ask but I "feel" I might not be accepted in good faith so far, having been pretty honest (and detailed) in responses to questions but above all I have been polite to everyone also.
Thanks

Ps can you explain why my messages are "under moderation"?

Thanks again :)
 
Yes, the tradition says Thomas travelled to India, and was eventually martyred there. But Jesus never did, there's always been quite an industry inventing narratives of the missing years (before He began His ministry). It started around the 2nd century. The Jesus-in-India thing is more recent and dates from the West's opening up of trade from the 18th century on.

To be honest I think 'the temperance of Indians' owes more to their own cultural heritage, rather than influences from outside — Buddhism predates Christianity by a long shot. The Ganges has been sacred to India back into antiquity, and again, I think the religious practices predate Christianity by a considerable margin.
I wont mither you to explain or prove or give evidence of why you countered every point I made because I am more than happy that you replied to my post and to explain my error and I feel you are more confident in your beiefs.
I'm probably wrong about it all. Can we agree on that much?

Can you explain the meaning of Daniel's prophecy at 23:4 in relation to where in history or where in our future you see this to being fullfilled??
Thanks
 
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I wont mither you to explain or prove or give evidence of why you countered every point I made...
He corrected speculation and hearsay (about Paul) with fact and evidence, after a lifetime of studying the subject in a scholarly way.

I am genuinely keen to understand a bit about what your beliefs really are? Could you list some of them, in concise points or in a clear way?
 
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Hi Usernamed

Can you check the reference? Daniel's only got 12 chapters ...

Sorry I just hjad a look and that should of meant Daniel 2.43 :)

(Im trying to type on a mobile phone and I am finding it quite difficult to be honest, both to quote specific parts and to keeping the relevent parts Im supposed to be replying too so please accept my apologies.cheers)
 
:mad::rolleyes:
He corrected speculation and hearsay (about Paul) with fact and evidence, after a lifetime of studying the subject in a scholarly way.

I am genuinely keen to understand a bit about what your beliefs really are? Could you list some of them, in concise points or in a clear way?
I dont know what to believe anymore and Thomas has easily convinced me that the biblel doesnt exist or that whatever is printed between the cover cannot be trusted, so Im not quite sure I can list my beliefs now....I feel Thomas is completely correct and I am wrong in believing what I up until now used to believe...I like to keep an open mind and I like the flexibility of correction. Thanks Thomas (I was clearly wrong about the 12...Paul is 100% Christianity...)
Is reality real? Im not sure anymore because I cannot prove it is... and faith I cannot prove I have to any man.... I only have my heart and I haven't seen that myself so I shouldnt really make assumptions about having one of them... It could all just be a giant conspiracy theory LOL (hehe just having a chuckle)..
Im lead to believe I cannot know anything unless it's academically endorsed?
I really have no hope in this life...if that can be accepted as a valid belief..your the judge.

What do you believe?

Is Santa real?...Ive seen images of him today in a shop
 
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so Im not quite sure I can list my beliefs now
When can you? Until then, how can I know? Sorry, please don't take offence. But to discuss your beliefs, what are they?
I dont know what to believe anymore and Thomas has easily convinced me that the biblel doesnt exist or that whatever is printed between the cover cannot be trusted,
You got this from what he wrote?

edited ...
 
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When can you? Until then, how can I know? Sorry, please don't take offence. But to discuss your beliefs, what are they?

You got this from what he wrote?

edited ...

Im trying to inject some humor into this thread, Thomas won't mind either... Im not great at expressing myself on forums so you might have to just take me as I come, but not sure why the admin was here before ...moderating me (?)

Thomas... can you please confirm or deny there is absolutely no plausibility whatso ever on this Paul Herodian link.
Have you read/heard of Robert Eisenman of Qumran fame? What do you make of his credentials (academically/scholarly)?


The greeting to Herodion, Pauls relative (kinsman) Rom16:11.
Pauls service to the high priest who is appointed by Herod.
The apparent Saulus-Paul link detailed in Josephus where Josephus say's Saulus is from the family of Herod.
Acts 22:28 reveals Paul has Roman citizenship from birth in Judea which was under control of Herod.
 
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eisenman

Ok, so what I'm getting is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written after the death of Jesus and that Paul corrupted the original 'Jewish revolutionary' Christianity of James the brother of Jesus, into a universal religion of peace? When all is said and done, this is the kernel of the argument?

but not sure why the admin was here before ...moderating me (?)
Sorry, no I edited my own post, fearing to cause offence.
 
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Of course scholars of early Christianity may chase lines and pull threads regarding James and Paul, but it's difficult to make Jesus sound like a Jewish political revolutionary, without ignoring the whole teaching of the Gospels?
 
Allowing Paul a tenuous connection to Herod, and accepting that he was a Roman citizen, it did not make him a Roman sympathiser? Although it does seem the Zealots saw him as one.

He was definitely also a strict Jewish Pharisee? He may have wanted to dissuade the Jews from revolting against the Romans, knowing they would be crushed and dispersed, as Jesus predicted.

But he was dead before or around the time Vespasian entered Jerusalem?

There can be an issue of confirmation bias when someone devotes his life to proving a theory -- that he tends to ignore evidence to the contrary?
 
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Of course scholars of early Christianity may chase lines and pull threads regarding James and Paul, but it's difficult to make Jesus sound like a Jewish political revolutionary, without ignoring the whole teaching of the Gospels?
OK I am just waking up from being poked for blood samples, and having a board shoved under me for chest xrays which caused the usual coughing fit which necessitated the squeezing of my heart pillow to minimize pain emanating from my sternum being cut and rib spreader.... (This the price we pay for being above ground today!). I just wanna add that while the mental distractions are beneficial, googling and cutting and pasting is trying right now. But what I think would benefit discussion right now would be a posting of new testament and apocryphal books, letters and scrolls withe their estimated earliest possible and latest surmised dates of penning said books....
 
@RJM Corbet -

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written during a period that extends back to before the birth of Jesus and extends forward to a time following his death. To date them as all coming after his death is incorrect.
 
... can you please confirm or deny there is absolutely no plausibility whatsoever on this Paul Herodian link.
Well what is the link? It's based on the fact that Paul says 'salute Herodian, my kinsman' in Romans 16:11.

But let's look at that list: here I've entered Romans 16:1-24, edited to highlight the point:
"And I commend to you Phebe, our sister ... Salute Epenetus, my beloved ... Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen ... Ampliatus, most beloved to me ... Stachys, my beloved ... Herodian, my kinsman ... Persis, the dearly beloved ... Salute Rufus, elect in the Lord, and his mother and mine ... Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen. Quartus, a brother ... " (verses 1-24)

So we have six kindsmen, a mother (also mother of Rufus) a sister, another brother and four beloveds.

Leaving the beloveds aside (one might argue this 'obviously' explains why Paul never married — he was gay and very active :rolleyes:) Einseman will have to show that if by kinsman Paul means Herodian is a close relative, then he'll have to say the same for eight others — that's eight more people to fit into the Herodian family tree. And we know from Josephus that Saulus was brother of Costobarus (Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chaper 1, paragraph 4) so the father was Costobarus, but then Rufus would have to be another brother Josephus doesn't mention at all ...

... or, we accept the scholarly theory, for which the evidence is overwhelming in the writings of antiquity, that by 'kinsman' Paul means a Jew, and that familial terms like brother and sister can indicate friendship, closeness or affection, as well as, but not necessarily, blood relation.

But, if Paul was of the family of Herod, and a convert, then why not say so? Herodian would be another convert, as are the others listed above — in fact defections from the Herodian family to Christianity would be somewhat epidemic! It would hardly be a secret, and it would only add to his kudos that he, of the family of the infamous Herod, a persecutor of Christians, had been called by Christ? Seems to me that if he was related to Herod, he would have made a big deal of it. And the Church would have made a big deal of it too, as it would have been something of a coup!

Pauls service to the high priest who is appointed by Herod.
I think there was a rota for the office of High Priest? I'd have to check that, but I'm pretty sure it's the case. perhaps RabbiO can correct me?

Acts 22:28 reveals Paul has Roman citizenship from birth in Judea which was under control of Herod.
No, Paul Tarsus in Cilicia is on the coast of Turkey, hundreds of miles from Judea.

+++

Here's the thing: If a book comes out saying 'this is wrong' then it's worth a look to check the argument. But if it says EVERYTHING is wrong, as Eisenman says, then that's a hard road to plough.

Frankly, I don't buy it. And no do most scholars. I could go on, but I think you'd think I was just gunning for the man. I checked critics online. He has his supporters, and his detractors. On balance, I am not a supporter ...
 
But what I think would benefit discussion right now would be a posting of new testament and apocryphal books, letters and scrolls withe their estimated earliest possible and latest surmised dates of penning said books....
Check out http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

It's a long list ... and I bet there's not one reference there that actually supports Eisenman's hypothesis.
 
@RJM Corbet -

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written during a period that extends back to before the birth of Jesus and extends forward to a time following his death. To date them as all coming after his death is incorrect.
Yes. That is what I understand. I am saying that Robert Eisenman disputes their dating and theorises they were written after the death of Jesus? As proposed by @usernamed?
 
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Here's a thing:

According to Eisenman, from what I can gather, the New Testament Gospels have been put together from the DDS, Josephus, various other invested parties, etc., etc ... can I ask ... what of Jesus?

By which I mean, with no authentic account, how do we know anything Jesus is supposed to have said or done can be accepted as reliable, as something one can believe in? You can't.

So James was supposed to be the head of the Church, not Peter. What was James' message?

No idea.

Strip away the humanist philosophical aphorisms: 'Do unto others', etc. Nothing remains, it's all rather generic and anodyne.

And on the DSS:
"Most experts who work with the Dead Sea Scrolls have concluded that they are Jewish texts and that none of them is a Christian composition. However, there have been a few who have studied the scrolls and have concluded just the opposite: they are Christian texts. The individuals who have offered the latter assessment have maintained that one has to read the scrolls in an unusual way to understand them as Christian works, and these scholars have had a very small following. They also take a different approach to dating the material: the scrolls generally have to be later in date than the evidence suggests for their theories to work (they could hardly be from the first century B.C.E. and also be Christian). --- The approach taken in the present chapter is to side with the overwhelming majority by holding that the scrolls were written, copied, and/or owned by people who were Jewish and did not acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, if they were even aware he existed." (VanderKam, J. C. (2012). The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible (p. 118). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.) source here
 
Can I ask you "where" you see me as "proselytizing"?
I'm not saying you are. My use of "you" in my sentence was a generic you (any forum member), not calling you out by name. I don't believe you have been proselytizing. If I see it happening though, be assured I let the user know. And usually do other forum members.

Ps can you explain why my messages are "under moderation"?
Part of our spam protection. Until new users reach a certain number of posts, the forum software automatically flags certain ones for moderation, usually when certain keywords are used. I'm being a bit cryptic in not providing exact words and numbers, but that is intentional to keep people from exploiting those safeguards.
 
I'm not saying you are. My use of "you" in my sentence was a generic you (any forum member), not calling you out by name. I don't believe you have been proselytizing. If I see it happening though, be assured I let the user know. And usually do other forum members.


Part of our spam protection. Until new users reach a certain number of posts, the forum software automatically flags certain ones for moderation, usually when certain keywords are used. I'm being a bit cryptic in not providing exact words and numbers, but that is intentional to keep people from exploiting those safeguards.
No worries, I certainly know where the you are coming from. We live in a very strange time in history where EVERYONE is guilty until proven innocent and there are some very paranoid people guiding the masses (Which I can fully understand because if I were them I might be pissing myself in fear now), so yeah I know what you mean, I thought for a minute I was "special" hehe.
Thanks for the explaination Steve :)
 
Here's a thing:

According to Eisenman, from what I can gather, the New Testament Gospels have been put together from the DDS, Josephus, various other invested parties, etc., etc ... can I ask ... what of Jesus?

By which I mean, with no authentic account, how do we know anything Jesus is supposed to have said or done can be accepted as reliable, as something one can believe in? You can't.

So James was supposed to be the head of the Church, not Peter. What was James' message?

No idea.

Strip away the humanist philosophical aphorisms: 'Do unto others', etc. Nothing remains, it's all rather generic and anodyne.

And on the DSS:

Do you think Eisenman is a plant or a kook?

One of these purposeful "renegade/maverick" type plants to steer the narrative back to..... the narrative? I think he baits the reader with 95% truth and slips in 5% dis-info which is why hes there (I might be wrong and reserve my right to be wrong) only he fulfils so many traits I used to see from the 911 movement or the "truth/conspiracy movements". But I do pay attention to him on account that he alone played a big part in making the access of the scrolls attainable to the general public, but I generally learned to keep my own opinions of the narrative, the only difference is I rarely state what they are these days and besides that I don't really need to, remember the adage " be as wise as serpents" (that doesnt mean become one lopl!!) or to observe from a little further back (as a non academic) is more fun, plus I do not have an audience to preach to, have books to sell, perspectives to disseminate etc nor will I ever likely get that "air-time" from the media so to speak. A beneficiary of simply watching and taking note of what is being played out. I have my reservations about the effect of Pauline doctrines but I know I am not alone on this. I like to know what the arguements are that oppose my natural gut feelings and you would be suprised how much knowledge can be accessed in this area....for free :)
You only have mention Paul and eventually his defending army will appear. Saul/saulus/St Paul should be able to defend himself by his own words so I don't need to worry for him, he has more clout than me LOL.
 
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