The Trinity is One God, not Three Gods

Thomas

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Hi Wil —
"To my mother I am a son, to my sister a brother, to my son a father, to my nephew an uncle, to my wife a husband, they all see me in different roles, in different ways with different names, but I am all me" and went on to say how all the gods are a trait, an aspect, a vision of the one.
This is similar to a point we often make about the Holy Trinity.

What is being described above is a set of external and accidental relations, the terms 'son', 'brother', 'father', 'uncle' etc., say nothing and tell nothing about the essential nature of the person, he can be all, some, or none (except son, obviously) — and it doesn't change anything.

Thus in the Doctrine of the Trinity the appelation 'Father', 'Son' and 'Holy Spirit' refers to an order of relation within the One-ness of God, a necessary order if there is to be any creation or any idea of divine union, and a meta-cosmic order of relation that preserves the absolute transcendence and infinite immanence of the Deity.

There cannot be any union with the divine if the principle of union does not pre-exist in the divine before all else.

Nor, indeed, can there be a creation.

There is a marked distinction however, between 'relation' and 'role', and this is where the error of 'modalism', on is in the idea of 'roles', which introduces Sabellianism, an error that regards the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct 'persons' in the Godhead.

The idea of 'person' is deployed in Christianity analogically, not as an error of anthropomorphism, but rather as a signifier of the human capacity to know God — that is God relates to the person as person — it's a relation at the most immediate, intimate and fundamental level.

(Remembering also that the classical definition of a person is 'an individual substance of a rational nature' — and we can say that God is One, and that God is rational)

The idea of 'person’ cannot however be the last word concerning God, as there is no ‘person’ where there is no relation and no other-ness.

This apophatic line can be followed from John and Paul, through Dionysius, Nicholas of Cusa, Eckhart and so on in the West. The most profound expression of this metaphysically is, I believe, to be found in the works of Eriugena, but I'm working on that.

Two things the Doctrine of the Trinity do that I find absent from other doctrines.
The one is the doctrine talks about the internal life of the Godhead, whereas all other triunes are cosmological and are to do with the orders of manifestation, and this can be applied (I think) to the Hindu pantheon.

The other is the doctrine of the Trinity is the only doctrine I know that gives a logical reason for why there is anything at all, why there is a creation, without making God subject to some order of external determination.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Thus in the Doctrine of the Trinity the appelation 'Father', 'Son' and 'Holy Spirit' refers to an order of relation within the One-ness of God, a necessary order if there is to be any creation or any idea of divine union, and a meta-cosmic order of relation that preserves the absolute transcendence and infinite immanence of the Deity.

Order...

Chronologicial?

Now some say linear time to be a manmade construct, that everything occurs all at once...

But beyond that, using the linear construct...

was there a G!d before the Son, and a Son before the Holy Ghost?

Now the 'who do you say I am' sometimes is made reference to reincarnation...but beyond that, there was not the 'Son' in earth as Christians see it before Jesus, was the Holy Ghost here? or just after Jesus left?

And now here, in earth's plane, the material plane can be seperate from the heavenly, ethereal plane...as far as this timeline goes...

so in the earthplane....FSH or FHS? (hmmm never having done that before find the FiSH coincidence interesting)
 
Wil,
 
I thought I'd give you the Theosophical answers to your questions.
 
By the way, Theosophy uses these terms:
 
First Logos = Father
Second Logos = Mother
Third Logos = Son
 
(Theosophy uses the terminology of Father-Mother-Son rather than the more traditional Father-Son-Holy Spirit.)
 
According to Theosophy, between universes, there is a principle called Father-Mother. At the first moment of the appearance of a new universe, this principle differentiates into Father and Mother. Father then fecundates Mother ("spirit moving across the waters," Gen 1:2) and the Son (the new universe) comes forth ("Let there be light," Gen 1:3). So we see it not as FSH but F-M leading to FMS.

(As a sidenote, FMS also stands for Flight Management System, the brains of the computer system used by modern airliners, the computer screens an airline pilot looks at throughout an entire flight!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system
 
Hi Wil —

Order ... Chronologicial?
No. The Trinity is prior to time and space and creation generally.

was there a G!d before the Son, and a Son before the Holy Ghost?
No, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

Now the 'who do you say I am' sometimes is made reference to reincarnation...but beyond that, there was not the 'Son' in earth as Christians see it before Jesus, was the Holy Ghost here? or just after Jesus left?
Where God is, there the Trinity is ... the Doctrine of the Trinity belongs to the order of Revelation, of the Interiotity of God, as much as man can comprehend it.

Christ asked this question all the time ... and it was not in reference to reincarnation, but to another order of spiritual operation:
"Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven" Matthew 16:15-17

Thus we can see that the recognition of Jesus as the Incarnate Logos of God is not a given, but is revealed, and to whom it is revealed is determined by God — not by any unaided operation of the human intellect or reason. Again, this revelation rises like an inspiration in Peter, and the very term 'inspiration' talks about breath, and this is how the Holy Spirit operates.

so in the earthplane....FSH or FHS?
According to Scripture and Tradition, the Holy Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father — hence the requirement for Baptism, and St Paul:
"For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba" Romans 8:15

"And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father"
Galatians 4:6

These are both Trinitarian 'operations' although the human involved need not necessarily know the 'name' or the 'nature' of the Deity — as John said:
"The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit"
This says many, many things ... one of them being that even those who are infused with the Holy Spirit hear the voice, as it were, but know not who speaks — Paul referred to this in his speech to the Athenians, when he spoke of the 'unknown god' of the Greeks.

So while it is the Holy Spirit who 'works' in the soul so that man might see and know Christ, who reveals the Father, it is all the one God.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Something to consider.

The definition of 'person' is 'an individual substance of a rational nature' — when we speak of the Persons of the Holy Trinity it is in light of this definition, used analogously of God. By so doing we have an immediate, immanent and intimate order of relation — person-to-person – bearing in mind that the mystery of Divine Union in the Catholic Tradition does not involve the absorption nor the annihilation nor the extinction of the finite human being.

Of God however, the definition can only be analogous, God is One, but not in the sense of 'one among many', but One in the sense of cardinal, rather than ordinal. In this sense the idea of 'individual' does not really apply. God is Infinite, and logically and rationally there can be no sense of individuality in the Infinite, any more than a number of individual infinites.

Substance is a term that infers its antonym, essence — so again we can only use the term analogously, God is not substance as we understand substance, any more than God is essence as we understand essence, or indeed spirit as we understand spirit — because all these terms infer their opposites, and indeed all these terms are defined according to their relation to other terms.

Rational. Here's a trick one. Yes, God is beyond rational as God is beyond all predication — but can we say God is irrational? No, or rather, if we can, then we might as well give up now. If God is irrational, then maybe tomorrow God decides that only parrots go to heaven ... or that prudence is not a virtue, or that love should be defined according to Steve Martin — 'the best thing that money can buy'.

So whilst we know apophatically we can predicate nothing of the Deity, we can have faith, and hope, in what might appear to be contingent certainties ... (this also is the reason why there is no evil in God — that would not only render God irrational, but schizophrenic)

Nature. Again, we can say 'nature' only in an analogous sense, for reasons which should be clear above?

What we have to see is that we can say certain things about God, even using man as a model, without necessarily anthropomorphising, as long as we remember we are talking analogously.

So, having said that ...

God is ... and God knows that He is.
So God is Himself, and He knows Himself.
Logically, it would seem, there is an order of procession here ... God's being Himself comes before God's knowing Himself, something must be before it can know that it is, but in God the two are simultaneous — there was never a time when God existed and didn't know it.

God's being we call Father; God's knowing we call Son.
The Greek Fathers called the Father the 'arche anarchos' — the Principle without Principle, and the Son they called 'arche' — Principle.
Thus John's Gospel opens "En arche... " which is translated as 'In the beginning ..." recollecting Genesis 1:1, but in both cases the more technically correct term should be 'In the principle ... "

Now in man, what he knows is always contingent and imperfect, with regard to the object of his knowledge, even if that object is himself. In God however, who is Perfect, His self-knowledge of His self-being is perfect, so perfect that each is entirely and wholly the other, or rather, there is no distinction between who God is (as it were), and what God knows Himself to be — there is no subject/object distinction in God. So whilst God can say "I am that I am" which infers subject/object ... in God the two are the same — the same in essence, the same in substance, the same in nature, the same in being.

It is this sameness of essence that is the substrate upon which the distinction rests, and this substrate we call Holy Spirit ... so like Father and Son the Holy Spirit is classified as a 'person' as the Father and the Son, but there is no equivalent noun that adequately can be ascribed to Him. One of my lecturers referred to the Holy Spirit as 'the Anonymous One', which I think is an acceptable appelation, especially as the Holy Spirit never declares Himself, but declares the Son, and the Father.

Thus we teach that the distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one of relation, not of essence nor of nature. In essence, nature, substance and being, the Three are One.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Hi Nick —

Theosophy uses the terminology of Father-Mother-Son rather than the more traditional Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
I think this highlights the difference between our traditions and understandings. Theosophy interprets the terms according to a natural or cosmological determination, so the Theosophic triune is the same as other triunes which are based on an agrarian vision of the cosmos, whereas the Christian Tradition the terms define (analogously) the supernatural or metacosmic state.

I think the general distinction can be said to be Theosophy says 'As below, so above' whilst Traditional metaphysics says 'as above, so below' allowing, as ever, that what is predicated of the above can only ever be analogous.

According to Theosophy, between universes, there is a principle called Father-Mother. At the first moment of the appearance of a new universe, this principle differentiates into Father and Mother.
Then the principles are relative and contingent, according to nature, whereas Christian 'principle' always refers to the Absolute.

Father then fecundates Mother ("spirit moving across the waters," Gen 1:2) and the Son (the new universe) comes forth ("Let there be light," Gen 1:3). So we see it not as FSH but F-M leading to FMS.
Here again we can see the supernatural interpreted through nature.

I would say that the Theosophical triune offers a 'how' creation occurs. The Christian model offers a 'why'.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Father
Holy Spirit
Son

Mind
Idea
Expression

Heaven
Ethers
Earth

inspiration
thought
action

thoughts in mind appear in kind...

nothing occurs without a thought first...the logos...

Like this slice of the skull that Michaelangelo created...G!d thought reaching out of the frontal lobe creating reality....we create our own reality with the same trinity of mind/thought/expression....

Sistine-CreationHq.jpg
 
Hi Wil —
...we create our own reality with the same trinity of mind/thought/expression...
There's the problem, there is only one real 'reality', our realities are finite and ephemeral, and if we live according to them, inevitably we die ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
Hi Wil —

There's the problem, there is only one real 'reality', our realities are finite and ephemeral, and if we live according to them, inevitably we die ...

God bless,

Thomas
no siblings? No discussions about what happenned 30 years ago? Reality is a creation of experience and perception. One child hates the teacher and thinks her the meanest individual on earth, the other will say someday that it was her and her demeaner that changed their life and made them want to be a teacher too. Which reality are you going to deny?
 
Hi wil —
no siblings? No discussions about what happened 30 years ago?
Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here?

Reality is a creation of experience and perception.
Subjective reality is ... the objectively real exists in itself, whether it's experienced or perceived or not.

But in reference to the issue at hand, the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not the creation of experience or perception, collective or otherwise, but a Revelation that belongs to the sphere of Scripture.

A useful pointer in this is the esoterist Frithjof Schuon's essay on The Human Margin:
Christ, in rejecting some rabbinical prescriptions as “human” and not “divine”, shows that according to the measures of God, there is a sector which, while being orthodox and traditional, is nonetheless human in a certain way; the divine influence, in other words, is total only for Scripture and the essential consequences of the Revelation, and it always allows for a “human margin” where it exerts itself only in an indirect fashion, yielding to ethnic or cultural factors.

The speculations of exoterism pertain largely to this sector or margin; orthodoxy is, on the one hand, homogeneous and indivisible and, on the other, contains degrees of absoluteness or relativity. We should therefore not be too scandalized at the anathemas which Dyophysites, Monophysites, Aphthartodocetae, Phthartolatrae, Agnoetae, Aktistetae, and Ktistolatrae hurl at one another over the question of knowing whether Christ is of an incorruptible substance or whether, on the contrary, his body was similar to other bodies, or if there was in the soul of Christ a measure of human ignorance, or if the body of Christ is uncreated while being visible, or if on the contrary it was created, and so on and so forth.
Thus many may speculate on the Trinity, and this is an understandable action in the exoteric domain, but in the esoteric — and the Mysteries of Christianity are nothing less than esoterisms in plain sight (as paradoxical as that may seem) — but a full and orthodox understanding of the doctrine can only be attained by a study of Scripture, tradition, and a real and participative engagement in the Liturgy.

Further on, Schuon states:
One fact that inevitably imposes itself, when considering ideas along these lines, is that fallen or post-Edenic man is a quasi-fragmentary being;
Scripture and Tradition is aimed at the healing of this fragmentation, the repair and recapitulation of the whole man, and the whole person is only whole when in Christ, for man is not created to be separate but to be one flesh with his fellow — the nuptial union enjoyed here and now, the union of two people, is a vestigial foreshadowing of the higher union of being, which is why Christ shook his head when the Pharisees set up the question about the woman married seven times ... this is exoterism trying to be clever by out-thinking esoterism, something that all humanity is tragically prone to.

The point is creation, and everything in it, is ordered towards its end, and its good, and we don't know what that is; our task is to work to discover that, not to invent our own, which can only ever be a provision, limited and lesser good.

One child hates the teacher and thinks her the meanest individual on earth, the other will say someday that it was her and her demeaner that changed their life and made them want to be a teacher too. Which reality are you going to deny?
Neither ... because in the end, it's ephemeral ... was the teacher being mean for not letting the child engage in a life-threatening activity? was perhaps the mean-ness of the teacher that made the other decide to be a teacher to do the job properly? Was it ... was it ... there are a thousand and one interpretations ... but in the end, none of it counts.

God bless,

Thomas
 
... there are a thousand and one interpretations ... but in the end, none of it counts.
None of it counts for who? These perceptions of a school child often affect their lives dramatically and for a lifetime... some in therapy for a lifetime...all on perceived realities, that aren't real?

now this one...

Christ, in rejecting some rabbinical prescriptions as “human” and not “divine”, shows that according to the measures of God, there is a sector which, while being orthodox and traditional, is nonetheless human in a certain way; the divine influence, in other words, is total only for Scripture and the essential consequences of the Revelation, and it always allows for a “human margin” where it exerts itself only in an indirect fashion, yielding to ethnic or cultural factors.
Me thinks Luther and many others basically say the same thing about much of christian orthodoxy and tradition...

Makes you contemplate what Jesus would think...in 'reality' he never had a chance to correct his 'biography'
 
Hi Wil —
Originally Posted by wil
...we create our own reality with the same trinity of mind/thought/expression...
There's the problem, there is only one real 'reality', our realities are finite and ephemeral, and if we live according to them, inevitably we die ...

God bless,

Thomas
Ok let's go with the one real reality....

It is still we who create it.

Did you build a fence in your backyard? Did your mind have a thought and did you make that thought reality?

Was there a fence before? What is the reality to you, what is the reality to your family, what is the reality to your neighbor...and if you didn't get a permit..does the town council provide a new reality?

Thoughts in mind appear in kind....it is creation, creating reality. Changing the one real reality of this moment into the reality of the next moment...

If G!d meant man to fly he would have given us wings....

Is that so?

Was that reality?

Is that reality?

If I can conceive it and believe it, I can achieve it...

Mind....idea....expression....

Everything in the physical world was first an idea....

a dinve idea....

desire

de sire

of the father.
 
I think the general distinction can be said to be Theosophy says 'As below, so above' whilst Traditional metaphysics says 'as above, so below' allowing, as ever, that what is predicated of the above can only ever be analogous.
No, I have never heard any Theosophist suggest anything different. "The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao." All speculation on the UNKNOWN [ABSOLUTE] is useless. Perhaps Nick understands this differently.

What Theosophists DO posit is that, just as all religions and philosophies have done, speculation on the Absolute as revealed THROUGH, IN and BY Cosmos is or can be fruitful and positive. Thus, we make the attempt, and entire theologies are born. Again, I would like to hear what Nick has to say. But NEVER have I heard of any Theosophist suggesting that simply by observing the world around us, or that by having some insight into the within, we have managed to once and for all `figure out' the innermost nature, identity and modus operandi of [God]. That seems more than vain, yet I know of plenty of folks who are thus [temporarily] deluded.

Thomas said:
Then the principles are relative and contingent, according to nature, whereas Christian 'principle' always refers to the Absolute.
Here, again, I do not consider you qualified, or ANYONE ELSE qualified, save the Absolute `qua Absolute' ... to treat of the subject. We may SPECULATE on such, believing that Absolute to be all-Wise, all-Loving, all-Powerful and all-Pervasive, yet this is simply because we already KNOW [Gnostics do, at any rate] that such capacity rests within us all. We KNOW this because we can witness, even experience it, on lesser scale.

If you are still hung up in paradoxes, suggesting that there can be no relative applications or experiences and expressions of these Omni-___ qualities ... then clearly you yourself have no experiences of [this type of thing] yet, and I would suggest that you stop drawing premature conclusions, let along speaking for the rest of us, until you take a few more steps and realize that - indeed, Perfection CAN BE `relative.' Or do you deny it?

As a matter of fact, even a young child knows this, for there is a true, Inner JOY which comes from even ANY degree of Mastery, as for example, learning to play a musical instrument to a certain degree. The child will perhaps not compare himself to the piano virtuoso or the master harpist, if s/he has a good sense of perspective and aptitude, but my point is that as aspirants, disciples and IMperfect human beings [at this stage], we often do not [have this right sense of perspective]. Hence we fail to realize and recognize the Perfection all around us [though Christ Himself TOLD us it was and is so] ... let alone the fact that Perfection, like the mighty Oak relative to the tiny acorn, rests within us ALL, as potential [vide Ephesians 4:13].

The Hermetic Axiom, `As Above, So Below' only reminds us that we CAN learn and gain insight into the world, the Universe and Cosmos Itself by learning to properly *observe* the world, the Universe and Cosmos ... and by doing our best humbly to relate ... which naturally entails the constant refinement of our VIEWS [which Buddha taught us NOT to hold to so tenaciously], plus Humility [embodied Beautifully by the Christ, and other Masters].

Alas, the theologian will often build his ivory tower, ego locked safely within, vainly elevated as high in that tower as he can get it ... thereby supplanting, denying, substituting the God-given TEMPLE, the body [and its subtler counterparts/prototypes] ... which Christ *raised* even after effort was made to destroy it. That false means of approach to God must one day yield to a genuine, direct recognition of the God within ALL MEN, but until this earnest & wonderful recognition comes, all that's really possible is a whole lot of standing around, whistling Dixie.

Thomas said:
Here again we can see the supernatural interpreted through nature.

I would say that the Theosophical triune offers a 'how' creation occurs. The Christian model offers a 'why'.

Not in my book, but again, Nick may differ.

To me, it's plain and simple, and I've never heard a Theosophist disagree. While there is much speculation about God, in God's infinite Wisdom, it is almost made abundantly clear [in Theosophical gatherings I've attended or groups I've discussed with] that the same God of LOVE as preached and taught by Christ in Christianity ... *expresses* or manifests Cosmos. This process, as you aptly observe, is most definitely described by modern Theosophical teachings, and in some detail, inasmuch as we might understand it, with our limited and aspiring intellect [plus yearning, a sense of Wonder, Majesty and AWE regarding the whole subject ... unless we have truly reached the stage of a Don Quixote].

But the notion that Theosophy cannot, or does not, attempt to treat of WHY the Cosmos was and is Manifest[ed] is not quite true. Theosophists simply do not attempt to tackle, or take on, what NO HUMAN OR DIVINE INTELLECT [even when blended with deepest, most penetrating Spiritual INSIGHT] CANNOT!

In short, "The Tao that can be named is NOT the Eternal Tao." Let me remind YOU again, Thomas, of that which you have been glad to remind ME a time or two. ;)

Thus, while it really should not make a man feel any more SMUG in his own, ivory-tower faux-understanding of WHY any of this has come to be [for you and I have no more idea of it than the greatest Maha-Chohans or Buddhas to have Graced our System] ... I will gladly point out that many a Theosophist is just as fascinated by the ancient philosophical question as you are, namely:
Why is there *something* rather than *nothing*?
For, remember old Friend, when this question is put to you [or me, or anyone] squarely ... we have NO possible reply that is other than pure speculation!

Why does a baby cry when it is put down to rest, or smile when its Mother picks it up again? If you can answer that, maybe you're on the right track. Maybe.

Why does the salmon swim upstream to spawn, struggling against great odds and defying this very tendency of nature to avoid predation and "go with the flow?" Science may give us several answers ... but do these fully satisfy you?

WHY does the Flower appear to us with such amazing variety, such Beauty and with an array of such amazing, heavenly fragrances ... when surely Nature Itself could have settled for less, or managed to work out the Divine Plan in a less aesthetically pleasing way? Or could She? Perhaps this simply is one way that we may observe and enjoy certain aspects of that Divine Plan, direct. [vide Luke 12:27, Matt 6:29]

No, Thomas, please do not presume to speak for Theosophists, since, unless I am mistaken, your current circles do not bring you into direct contact with more than a mere handful of us [or those who identify with this line of thinking]. I will grant you that Theosophy and Christiany are quite different, exoterically ... for modern Theosophical doctrine, though well established upon the foundation of the ancient & Ageless Wisdom-religion, is no more than ~150 years old, at best. But let this not confuse you as to what it is Theosophers are all about.

Theosophical-minded [and -hearted] people the world over are as interested in the `WHY' questions as you [and Christians] are, and since we are equally committed to helping to SOLVE the world's problems, and bring INTO expression the solution(s) to Humanity's current struggles ... I think it would be extremely disingenuous to suggest that we do not look through the lens, holding to the notion, of God as a Loving God. Perhaps you should re-investigate and re-familiarize yourself with some of the Prayers, Meditations, Mantrams and subjects of study before you continue to incorrectly speculate about what Theosophists think about, and how they approach or view subjects like `the Trinity.'

Time and again you have suggested that Christianity somehow corners the market on the notion of the Trinity, with either a direct or subtle air of superiority ... while yet you accuse Theosophists [or myself, or Nick] of being smug, and so forth. Differences of nuance, yes, I would acknowledge that, and because the world's different traditions have a slightly different take on this UNIVERSAL and MOST ANCIENT of doctrines, we try to discuss it like civilized human beings at an Interfaith site.

But if, and when, someone steps boldly forward, declaring - or even subtly implying - that HIS NOTION [or his tradition's notion] of a certain concept is simply, superior to all others (offering something which those other traditions DO NOT) ... that someone places himself on SHAKY GROUND.

My friend, my foil is in my hand ... and YOU are challenged.

FOIL ME if you will. For I CALL YOUR BLUFF.

YOUR TRINITY is no different than mine, no greater, no lesser, NO OTHER.

Either there is ONE, or your entire religion IS A SHAM. And mine, and everyone else's along with it.

Oh, so greatly we err [*better expressed* "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!"]

Assuming your error was entirely innocent and not intended to offend, even in the least, you have my humble apologies. But if it be otherwise, know that I will be the first - to do my part - to set things right.

You CANNOT have multiple Trinities [inasmuch as we would agree that the Supreme Logos is THE Threefold Logos], only various notions about such, and so I say again, I think it absurd to suggest that those who subscribe to one of the most sublime, ancient and well developed religious and spiritual philosophies on the planet ... simply do not ask WHY.

But before you accuse me of getting my bowels in an uproar all for nothing, I'd like to hear you say more of what we must only assume was simply an innocent observation: and that is, that Theosophists do like to sometimes discuss the rather elaborate processes, as best we've been able to contemplate and investigate them, by which our Cosmos [meaning {God} via {an ultimate, and in that sense Absolute} Trinity, and Septenate] has come into expression.

For certain, along with studying the HOW of things, we do enjoy smiling, e'en scrunching up our brow at times and asking WHY?

Thomas said:
there is only one real 'reality', our realities are finite and ephemeral, and if we live according to them, inevitably we die ...
Not the one that I'm seeking to be[come] a part of, and which I trust that every other Soul in Cosmos already belongs us. Or has the Prodigal in some people's case simply wandered so far from the Father that s/he forgets his or her own heritage and [Potential] inheritance?

I think I understand. But I will stand my ground and argue for the New Kingdom, nonetheless. In other words, I won't fight you for your limitations. Keep 'em if they mean that much to you! :D

Stand with me for a moment, see that my ground IS NO DIFFERENT than your ground [or would you still waste all that breath for a Kingdom without a King, an empty castle full of empty rooms?] ... and suddenly you may find that there is NOTHING that cannot be done [virtually speaking] once we put our mind to it!

God did not create the Cosmos that part of it might be a throwaway. That's as absurd as suggesting that ONE FACE [Aspect] of the Trinity isn't really important, and that with the snap of his proverbial, anthropomorphic fingers, God will just do away with whichever of these Aspects [He] decides aren't important.

Interesting, for that begs further discussion and can be understood as conditionally true ... but not while our metaphysical differences are so vast. In the meantime, I suggest revisiting the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY ... for, as dear Mr. Einstein put it:
God does not play dice [with the Universe].
When a man can see that this CERTAINLY applies to our SOULs ... he is ready for the realization that our own thoughts, speech and actions determine our Destiny ... and nothing else. Grace, though he may come to deepen his understanding of it, and relation to God via Grace, will never replace Good, Honest Hard WORK.

For if Christ Himself came to SERVE, what gives US the gumption ... to elevate ourselves BEYOND Him?

Thus the lowest of the low ... even as the highest of the high [shall meet and once again be with ~ His Lord]. :)

Namaskar
 
A paraphrase from a Thomist philosopher (follower of Aquinas, not of "our" Thomas!) whose name I do not recall (these are not my thoughts, but I hope I do not misrepresent his):

All verbal formulations, as applied to God, are really inadequate, and useful only by analogy. When we say "God is good" we do not mean "good" in the same sense that a summer breeze or an old wine is "good" but something analogous. The same applies to number-words. Now, if on a patch of relatively high ground there was a residence, and a gap, and another residence, and another gap, and another residence, we say "there are three houses on the one hill"; but, if halls are built from each house to the other, we say "they have been joined into one building" while, if rain and erosion create low gullies between the houses, we would now say "there are three hills". But as applied to God, we do not mean that there are "gaps", or that parts have been "joined".

To say "God is one" is an analogy which goes together with such formulations as "God is supreme" (obviously, there can only be "one" supreme being), and this we know by reason. To say "God is three" is an analogy which goes together with "God is love", which we know only by revelation (reason alone might rather lead us to the mistaken belief that God is indifferent). In love, there is the Lover, and the Beloved, and the Bond of love between them, which is the Holy Spirit. The Roman Church teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds equally from the Father and from the Son, for it would be blasphemy to say that the Son does not love the Father just as much as the Father loves the Son.

The Greek Church says rather that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and this is sensible as regarding the love of God for the Church. For that love is the love of the Father for his Son: the Father sees Jesus in us, in place of Adam. To the Virgin Mary alone, the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Son, who loves his Mother as he loves his Father. It is for this reason that she is distinguished from all other saints.
 
Hi Wil —
None of it counts for who? These perceptions of a school child often affect their lives dramatically and for a lifetime... some in therapy for a lifetime...all on perceived realities, that aren't real?
I'm here discussing the Trinity, not the perceptions of a schoolchild.

Me thinks Luther and many others basically say the same thing about much of christian orthodoxy and tradition...
If you read Schuon's essay, he points out the why of it.

Makes you contemplate what Jesus would think...in 'reality' he never had a chance to correct his 'biography'
Really? Maybe His biography is exactly as He wanted it ... and the responsibility is on us to get it right with the ample evidence supplied, rather than assume that God has to micromanage our lives and actions.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Andrew,
 
You said,
 
"The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao." All speculation on the UNKNOWN [ABSOLUTE] is useless. Perhaps Nick understands this differently."

-->
 
No, I have the same understanding as you. In Theosophy, we have two concepts; the First Logos (the Father) and the unknowable, the unnamable, which we refer to as the Absolute. Would you say the Eternal Tao is the same as the Theosophical Absolute, or is it the Logos, the "God" of so many religions (including Christianity)?
 
According to Theosophy, not only is it almost impossible for us to understand the Absolute, but an intentional veil has been thrown up between the Absolute and us. Genesis refers to a firmament that has been thrown up (Gen 1:7). Theosophy says this firmament is actually a veil which intentionally hides from our view something which is called the Absolute’s ‘shoreless sea of fire’:
 
"Behold him [the Son, the Third Logos] lifting the veil [the Christian firmament] and unfurling it from east to west. He shuts out the above, and leaves the below to be seen as the great illusion. He marks the places for the shining ones, and turns the upper (space) into a shoreless sea of fire, and the one manifested (element) into the great waters." (Stanzas of Dzyan i-3-7)
 
The question is asked: why has the universe appeared? Why are we here? One Theosophist said simply, we do not know the Absolute’s motivations for doing this (and we never can nor will). The finite human mind cannot understand the motivations of the infinite (although it is fun to try!). Christians may say that God created a universe for us because he loves us, but some Theosophists see that as a drastic example of anthropomorphizing. (It must be also said that some Christian Theosophists do see it that way.) Fortunately, each Theosophist has the right to believe whatever he or she wants to believe, no one Theosophist has the right to tell another what to believe. (We have no Pope to tell us what we must and must not believe, and we like it this way just fine.)
 
You said,
 
"…modern Theosophical doctrine, though well established upon the foundation of the ancient & Ageless Wisdom-religion, is no more than ~150 years old, at best."
 
-->
 
I see it a different way. Modern Theosophy is the latest release of ancient wisdom, which has been periodically re-released many many time since the beginning of the human race. But Theosophy is the same set of teachings that were taught by Pythagorus, Plato, etc. (and originally taught by Buddha and originally taught by Jesus, but have become greatly changed down through the centuries). Indeed, Theosophy's main aim is to rescue the archaic truths in organized religions which always become distorted and perverted as the centuries go by.
 
No, I have never heard any Theosophist suggest anything different.
Then I'm right, and that points out where the contemporary Theosophist misunderstands, willingly or through accidental ignorance, the essentials of the Christian Revelation.

"The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao." All speculation on the UNKNOWN [ABSOLUTE] is useless.
St Paul said: "Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you" (Acts 17:23) Revelation is not speculation.

"And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father" (Galatians 4:6). That cry is not speculation, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the soul is inspired.

Nor is the quest for God useless.

What Theosophists DO posit is that, just as all religions and philosophies have done, speculation on the Absolute as revealed THROUGH, IN and BY Cosmos is or can be fruitful and positive.
Indeed it can, and my degree dissertation was on cosmology ... but the Absolute as Revealed in Himself transcends that to an infinite degree.

But NEVER have I heard of any Theosophist suggesting that simply by observing the world around us, or that by having some insight into the within, we have managed to once and for all `figure out' the innermost nature, identity and modus operandi of [God]. That seems more than vain, yet I know of plenty of folks who are thus [temporarily] deluded.
And I agree. As St Paul says: "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). That 'but' says it all.

yet this is simply because we already KNOW [Gnostics do, at any rate] that such capacity rests within us all. We KNOW this because we can witness, even experience it, on lesser scale.
Then it is not revealed, is it? So again, you're talking about an operation of the human intellect, not a disclosure of what lies beyond human perception, which is what I am talking about.

You're talking about speculation, I'm talking about Revealed Truth.

If you are still hung up in paradoxes...
No I'm not, I rather think you are talking to yourself here.

The point is there is a knowing which goes beyond understanding, a knowing which rests in a 'dark certitude' which transcends the formal order, and that knowing is a gift of the indwelling Spirit. That is what faith is, and that is what delights God more than any other work of man:
"And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed... And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel... And Jesus said to the centurion: Go, and as thou hast believed, so be it done to thee" (Matthew 8:8, 10, 13).
The true gnostic knows that knowledge is like chaff before the wind in the face of God.

Not in my book
That's the point. I speak from a different Book.

Theosophists simply do not attempt to tackle, or take on, what NO HUMAN OR DIVINE INTELLECT [even when blended with deepest, most penetrating Spiritual INSIGHT] CANNOT!
Then I suggest the presumptions of your theosophists is in error. And suggesting that the DIVINE INTELLECT does not know Itself is absurd — you cannot measure God by your own shortcomings.

In short, "The Tao that can be named is NOT the Eternal Tao." Let me remind YOU again, Thomas, of that which you have been glad to remind ME a time or two. ;)
And let me remind you of the term 'analogy'.

But that does not mean we should assume the Divine Name is empty and without meaning. There's a huge body of esoteric teaching on the Divine Name, let me remind you also of that.

[for you and I have no more idea of it than the greatest Maha-Chohans or Buddhas to have Graced our System]
Speak for yourself, please.

I will gladly point out that many a Theosophist is just as fascinated by the ancient philosophical question as you are, namely:
Why is there *something* rather than *nothing*?
For, remember old Friend, when this question is put to you [or me, or anyone] squarely ... we have NO possible reply that is other than pure speculation!
Well, old friend, again you assume too much. Please do not assume that because you don't know, no-one can.

No, Thomas, please do not presume to speak for Theosophists,
I don't speak for Theosophists, I speak to correct their errors.

Time and again you have suggested that Christianity somehow corners the market on the notion of the Trinity, with either a direct or subtle air of superiority ...
Revelation is not hawked off a market stall, and the insinuation of superiority is yours. Personally, I find the notion offensive. I know my own shortcomings well enough. I only seek to pass on what has been passed to me ... it's not mine.

while yet you accuse Theosophists [or myself, or Nick] of being smug, and so forth.
I don't, and never have. Of misunderstanding, yes. But smugness. no.

But if, and when, someone steps boldly forward, declaring - or even subtly implying - that HIS NOTION [or his tradition's notion] of a certain concept is simply, superior to all others (offering something which those other traditions DO NOT) ... that someone places himself on SHAKY GROUND.
Well now you are being smug, for by ground do you make such a statement other than the assumption that you know it all?

My friend, my foil is in my hand ... and YOU are challenged.
OK.

FOIL ME if you will. For I CALL YOUR BLUFF.
OK

YOUR TRINITY is no different than mine, no greater, no lesser, NO OTHER.
OK. It's your challenge, and I'm waiting...

Either there is ONE, or your entire religion IS A SHAM. And mine, and everyone else's along with it.
... still waiting ...

Oh, so greatly we err [*better expressed* "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!"]
... still waiting ...

Assuming your error was entirely innocent and not intended to offend, even in the least, you have my humble apologies. But if it be otherwise, know that I will be the first - to do my part - to set things right.
OK ... can you get to the point (if yoiu'll excuse the pun)?

You CANNOT have multiple Trinities
No, you can't. My point entirely.

You can, and will, have multiple cosmic triunes, and that, I suggest, is the source of your confusion. I'm talking about the principle, you're talking about the multiple subsequent instances as if they were equal to their principle. They're not. And effect is not the equal of its cause.

... inasmuch as we would agree that the Supreme Logos is THE Threefold Logos...
We don't agree at all. Here you seem to be evidencing the theosophical tendency to confuse the cosmic and the metacosmic. In the metacosmic, which speaks of the Absolute Principle, there is only one God, and there is only one Logos of God.

Again, in the cosmic there are multiple instances of triune relations, but these are all relative and contingent, according to their principle.

I'd like to hear you say more of what we must only assume was simply an innocent observation: and that is, that Theosophists do like to sometimes discuss the rather elaborate processes, as best we've been able to contemplate and investigate them, by which our Cosmos [meaning {God}
Well there I would say you are in error. The Absolute qua Absolute transcends all formal manifestation.

via {an ultimate, and in that sense Absolute} Trinity, and Septenate] has come into expression.
I don't know what you're talking about ... but it's not the Trinity.

That's as absurd as suggesting that ONE FACE [Aspect] of the Trinity isn't really important, and that with the snap of his proverbial, anthropomorphic fingers, God will just do away with whichever of these Aspects [He] decides aren't important.
Andrew, it's you who is making these absurd statements where no-one else is.

And you've thrown down the challenge, but said nothing of substance. I've pointed out the errors is your assumptions. Over to you ... but can we stick to the point?

God bless,

Thomas
 
nothing occurs without a thought first...the logos...
Actually it does. The Thinker is greater than the thought.

Like this slice of the skull that Michaelangelo created...G!d thought reaching out of the frontal lobe creating reality....we create our own reality with the same trinity of mind/thought/expression....
Yes, but there is a huge difference between what we think and what God thinks ... the trick is to think in line with what God thinks, rather than rely on what we think, which is so often tragically wrong.

Thus the reality we create is temporal and ephemeral ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
Hi Nick —
Would you say the Eternal Tao is the same as the Theosophical Absolute, or is it the Logos, the "God" of so many religions (including Christianity)?
If you think that, you misunderstand Christianity.

Nick the Pilot;244806According to Theosophy said:
but an intentional veil has been thrown up between the Absolute and us[/I].
If you understood the esoteric implication of the rending of the veil of the temple, as recorded in the Synoptic Gospels, you might have a better insight into Christianity.

The question is asked: why has the universe appeared? Why are we here? One Theosophist said simply, we do not know the Absolute’s motivations for doing this (and we never can nor will).
Really? Then why bother?

The finite human mind cannot understand the motivations of the infinite (although it is fun to try!).
But we say the soul has the capacity for the Infinite, which you seem to miss. However, if you approach the Absolute from the standpoint of 'fun', then it's hardly surprising.

Christians may say that God created a universe for us because he loves us, but some Theosophists see that as a drastic example of anthropomorphizing. (It must be also said that some Christian Theosophists do see it that way.)
Not the orthodox understanding. That's why it's better to go to authentic Christian sources, and not syncretic ideas, even of 'Christian Theosophists'.

Fortunately, each Theosophist has the right to believe whatever he or she wants to believe, no one Theosophist has the right to tell another what to believe.
That always strikes me as funny. The Secret Doctrine says 'There is no religion higher than truth', and you say, truth doesn't matter ...

(We have no Pope to tell us what we must and must not believe, and we like it this way just fine.)
Seems to me you believe what you've been told by Theosophists, and continue to believe it, even when it's been demonstrated to be wrong. That's 'blind faith', in my book.

…modern Theosophical doctrine, though well established upon the foundation of the ancient & Ageless Wisdom-religion, is no more than ~150 years old, at best."
I would agree, though I would question the foundation. Certainly the philosophers of the Perennial Tradition have shown how modern theosophy has become subject to certain modernist tendencies that have resulted in a break with the Timeless Tradition — far too much a dependency on modern sources.

Indeed, Theosophy's main aim is [/SIZE]to rescue the archaic truths in organized religions which always become distorted and perverted as the centuries go by.
If that were the case, how come it is so often so radically ill-informed about what the content of those religions is about?

I finf discussing Christianity with a Theosophist always involves correcting errors or assumptions. When I've discussed Christianity with a Perennialist, they are far better informed, and far more cogent in their argument.

God bless,

Thomas
 
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