Heresy - Authority

[RJM]

The context, my frame of reference, sheds a different understanding on the same passage. It makes sense in that the Father has given us a different frame of reference, one that I can only offer forward.

In "The Summons of the Lord of Hosts", pp 54 – 67, Baha'u'llah addresses Pope Pius IX and starts with this statement. (The context of the "Father" is included in the Tablet and I have extracted those 3 occurrences following)

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained....".......
......."The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty..."......
......"This is the day whereon the Rock crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”".......
......"This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory...."

Bahá’u’lláh, Lawḥ-i-Páp (Tablet to the Pope)

Bahá’u’lláh, Lawḥ-i-Páp (Tablet to the Pope)

Translated. Original Arabic

oceanoflights.org

Therin lays the context used, stated in my own posted thoughts on John 10.

Regards Tony

All this shows is that Bahaullah claims to be the return of Christ the Son in the station of the Father, and writes to the pope in grandiose language "that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the throne of might and glory" and so on.

It doesn't mean that John 10 should be manipulated and cherry-picked out of context to try justify his claim.

 

[RJM]

It is true that Pope Pius IX lost the Papal states when the 'Donation of Constantine' letter granting them to Pope Sylvester (314-335) and all future popes was proved to be a forgery -- the deception lasting more than 700 years from when the King Pepin was informed of the contents of this document in 756, and confirmed the privileges and militarily secured the lands described in the 'Donation' for Pope Stephen (752-757)

William Hamblin & Daniel Peterson: The ‘Donation of Constantine’ and the powers of medieval popes and emperors

Though often challenged and threatened, medieval popes could not be ignored

www.deseret.com

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It doesn't mean that John 10 should be manipulated and cherry-picked out of context to try justify his claim.

I would offer there is much, much more to consider than just the above 3 quoted extracts, before we could confirm or deny the possible meanings for John 10.

All this other material that I have read, gives me a frame of reference where I can consider that the Father can mean God and/or the "Glory of God" (Meaning of Baha'u'llah)

Baha'u'llah asked us to consider why this is called the "Day of God". Which is the "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

Form my research, and my understanding, God does not enter into Creation. I see Heaven is part of creation, its closer than our life vein, we close our eyes in this life and open them in the kingdom of lights (Heaven)

So what Will is to be done that is coming from Heaven? Most likely God's will via the Manifestations of God, or the Son returned as the Father, who imparts God's Will onto humanity. That one letter to the Pope was such a call, a call of the "Holy Spirit".

All IMHO

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I would offer there is much, much more to consider than just the above 3 quoted extracts, before we could confirm or deny the possible meanings for John 10.

All this other material that I have read, gives me a frame of reference where I can consider that the Father can mean God and/or the "Glory of God" (Meaning of Baha'u'llah)

Baha'u'llah asked us to consider why this is called the "Day of God". Which is the "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

Form my research, and my understanding, God does not enter into Creation. I see Heaven is part of creation, its closer than our life vein, we close our eyes in this life and open them in the kingdom of lights (Heaven)

So what Will is to be done that is coming from Heaven? Most likely God's will via the Manifestations of God, or the Son returned as the Father, who imparts God's Will onto humanity. That one letter to the Pope was such a call, a call of the "Holy Spirit".

All IMHO

Regards Tony

Well you already think that when the Bible says 'the Glory of God' it means Bahaullah, so no reason not to think Christ meant Bahaillah when speaking of the Father in John 10.

Because he claimed those titles for himself doesn't make it real, nor repeating it endlessly, imo

Nobody's going to change your mind, so ...

 

[Thomas]

This is also In the Baha'i Writings

"..God hath revealed, that "We are closer to man than his life-vein..."

I rather think that's actually in the Quran! and the follow-up citation is from an un-named Persian sage, I think?

+++

Looking at the Hidden Words, it appears to follow the Nahj al-Balāgha (نهج البلاغة, "The Peak of Eloquence"), one of the most celebrated works of Shiʿi Islam literature. It is attributed to ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib (d.661CE), cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet (pbuh), the first Shiʿi Imam.

From an AI dive:
Apparently the Nahj al-Balagha is the Hidden Words stylistic model – same forms of address, same genre of moral aphorism, same use of rhymed prose. The Báb quoted it.

The Nahj covers an extraordinarily wide range: theology, metaphysics, ethics, politics, social justice, jurisprudence, history, and rhetoric. It is considered a paradigm of classical Arabic eloquence and has profoundly shaped Arabic literary and rhetorical tradition – not surprising then that Baha'u'llah would model Hidden Words on it.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I rather think that's actually in the Quran! and the follow-up citation is from an un-named Persian sage, I think?

+++

Looking at the Hidden Words, it appears to follow the Nahj al-Balāgha (نهج البلاغة, "The Peak of Eloquence"), one of the most celebrated works of Shiʿi Islam literature. It is attributed to ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib (d.661CE), cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet (pbuh), the first Shiʿi Imam.

From an AI dive:
Apparently the Nahj al-Balagha is the Hidden Words stylistic model – same forms of address, same genre of moral aphorism, same use of rhymed prose. The Báb quoted it.

The Nahj covers an extraordinarily wide range: theology, metaphysics, ethics, politics, social justice, jurisprudence, history, and rhetoric. It is considered a paradigm of classical Arabic eloquence and has profoundly shaped Arabic literary and rhetorical tradition – not surprising then that Baha'u'llah would model Hidden Words on it.

It is sad to see AI also used for confirmation bias on this forum, as well as others I participated on.

The Hidden Words are quoting past scriptures, this is what Baha'u'llah says about the Hidden Words.

"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue."
(The Hidden Words)
www.bahai.org/r/642922139

So, (noting the following), the most likely option is that it came from God and the following verse from Jesus is being demonstrated, that God takes from His Messengers, what is God's to give, and gives us back to us, John 16:14.

Baha'u'llah did not partake of Islamic studies and asked us to be fair when determining where the Revelation came from, this is also is referenced from "The Summons of the Lord of Hosts".

"....We beseech God to aid thee to be just and fair-minded, and to acquaint thee with the things that were hidden from the eyes of men. He, in truth, is the Mighty, the Unconstrained. We ask thee to reflect upon that which hath been revealed, and to be fair and just in thy speech, that perchance the splendors of the daystar of truthfulness and sincerity may shine forth, and may deliver thee from the darkness of ignorance, and illumine the world with the light of knowledge. This Wronged One hath frequented no school, neither hath He attended the controversies of the learned. By My life! Not of Mine own volition have I revealed Myself, but God, of His own choosing, hath manifested Me. In the Tablet, addressed to His Majesty the Sháh—may God, blessed and glorified be He, assist him—these words have streamed from the tongue of this Wronged One:...."

Regards Tony

The Earth is but One Country and Mankind its Citizens - Baha'u'llah

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Because he claimed those titles for himself doesn't make it real, nor repeating it endlessly, imo

But, unlike the name Jesus, it is a fulfillment of specific prophecies, such as

Isaiah 62:2 "And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory; and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name."

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the mouth of the Lord, just as Jesus was, but in this age both the Bab and Baha'u'llah took these names as per Isaiah. Baha'u'llah is the one that has written to the Kings and Rulers, revealing to them He is the "Glory of God", the "Father".

Also

Revelation 2:17 – "To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it".
Revelation 3:12 – "The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God... I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God... and I will also write on them my new name."

Interestingly it also talks about writing the name of the City, as there was to be a "New Jerusalem", could be that is Haifa, maybe Akka!

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

It is sad to see AI also used for confirmation bias on this forum, as well as others I participated on.

What do you mean?
AI is used for research. It can compile a lot of information quickly.
What is sad about that?
It can make mistakes, so it behoove to make a deeper dive or ask it to turn you directly to specific sources, when needed.
It's also possible to call out AI when it does make mistakes and it will acknowledge.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What do you mean?
AI is used for research. It can compile a lot of information quickly.
What is sad about that?
It can make mistakes, so it behoove to make a deeper dive or ask it to turn you directly to specific sources, when needed.
It's also possible to call out AI when it does make mistakes and it will acknowledge.

That statement was not needed, but when I was going to remove it, it was too late. My initial understanding of the intent, was to show that it was not a concept original to Baha'u'llah.

The post would not have been required if the Introductory passage of the Hidden Words was read, and that is all thay needed to be said.

Baha'u'llah was of the 12 Shia tradition and Baha'u'llah has offered Ali was the rightful Successor of Islam and that the Covenant was broken on His deathbed, when other elder follows took control.

I am seeing an increase in the use of AI only posts on other forums, would be sad to see it unfold here as well.

Regards Tony

 

[Longfellow]

It's also possible to call out AI when it does make mistakes and it will acknowledge.

ROTFL! Which AI does that?

 

[Thomas]

The context, my frame of reference, sheds a different understanding on the same passage.

But your frame of reference bears no relation to the context of what John 10 actually says.

You said:
"In this context, who is the Father being talked about? It does not have to be interpreted as "G-d"
When it clearly and indisputably does – doubling-down on the error does not validate it.

 

[Thomas]

This confuses me ...

LOL. Always remember we are talking in imperfect analogies.

... you throw this in which definitely complicates things - myself and my family members are totally different people. We are not the same being. Three of us claiming to be one being results in a crowded doorway.

That's not what I said – You and your family are different 'beings' but you and they are 'human', without that nature being divided up between individual human beings.

If human family members are the comparison... one might have many children, many siblings, many cousins, many ancestors, etc.

That's why the analogy is never perfect, because the analogy speaks about a different category of thing.

 

[Thomas]

Form my research, and my understanding, God does not enter into Creation.

Then that sets the Baha'i apart from the Jew, the Christian or the Muslim.

We, as you, all acknowledge that God is utterly transcendent, whereas, it seems, we (Jews, Christians and Muslims) believe in Divine Immanence as the real indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and not merely as an analogical moral or psychological state.

None of us are pantheists, but we three believe that "In Him we live and move and are" ...

That one letter to the Pope was ...

That one letter to the Pope was self-aggrandising and, as the head of an emerging tradition addressing the head of an ancient tradition, rude and offensive.

 

[Thomas]

It is sad to see AI also used for confirmation bias on this forum ...

Well it's a useful tool when used as a reference point.

The point was made scholar before AI, so it stands.

"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue."

Personally I think they've been stripped of their anagogical meaning – rather than enlightening, the interpretation occludes the Divine in inaccessible obscurity. They are virtuous, which is laudable, but not much else.

The Earth is but One Country and Mankind its Citizens - Baha'u'llah

Quite ... a humanist sentiment an atheist would have no problem agreeing with.

But if you ask its citizen to march in one step, to sing one song, then you are making a mistake often made in history, of an authoritarianism that leads to totalitarianism.

 

[Thomas]

ROTFL! Which AI does that?

LOL, I use AI in my Japan history resources, and it seems that both ChatGPT and browser AI tools often confuse East and West, as they do gender when translating documents.

So I let AI do the donkeywork, then double check the references.

 

[RJM]

Form my research, and my understanding, God does not enter into Creation. I see Heaven is part of creation, its closer than our life vein, we close our eyes in this life and open them in the kingdom of lights (Heaven)

Then that sets the Baha'i apart from the Jew, the Christian or the Muslim.

We, as you, all acknowledge that God is utterly transcendent, whereas, it seems, we (Jews, Christians and Muslims) believe in Divine Immanence as the real indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and not merely as an analogical moral or psychological state.

None of us are pantheists, but we three believe that "In Him we live and move and are" ...

I get that the perfect light always recedes, even from the highest angel, there is always a higher light. But that does not take away the light we have -- God meets us where we are -- and it does not restrict the light of God to the words of a 'messenger' written in some book or scroll and valid as the only, or apex, source of truth for the next thousand years, imo

 

[TheLightWithin]

ROTFL! Which AI does that?

Welp the AI i use is usually just google search AI mode on Chrome and Firefox.
It acknowledges errors and apologizes.
It was brought up right!
By that I mean programmed for that.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That one letter to the Pope was self-aggrandising and, as the head of an emerging tradition addressing the head of an ancient tradition, rude and offensive.

I see God talks to His servant/s, as God so Chooses, as I share that God has done through Baha'u'llah to the Pope.

I see it as the All Powerful showing His transcendence over the elected vicar of Christ, His ministers, its congregations and all the peoples of the world.

Regards Tony