Serious doubts about the ethics of personal salvation

[taijasi]

Ask any child which is right...To let someone else be punished for what you did, or to be responsible, and bear the consequences yourself?

Now this is one to make us stop and think ...

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:1-3

andrew

 

[Cage]

I looked that passage up, and it went much further...

Matthew 18:1-6,10

1. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

In this I can find comfort, but Jesus goes even further..

6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What does this mean? (Offend?)

The Living Bible translates this way:

-- Living Bible
Matthew 18:6 But if any of you causes one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose his faith, it would be better for you to have a rock tied to your neck and be thrown into the sea.

Revised Standard translates this way:

-- Revised Standard
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Young's Bible translates this way:

-- Young's Bible
Matthew 18:6 and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

I guess the real question is: What does 'trust' and 'belief' in Jesus amount to?

10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Simple English translates like this:

-- Simple English
Matthew 18:10 ``Don't treat one of these little ones as if they were not important. I tell you, their angels in heaven are always looking at my heavenly Father's face.

Ask a child which is right: To let someone else be punished for what they did, or to be responsible, and accept the consequences themselves?

Then...

Ask the same child who have been raised Christian, if Jesus took their sins upon himself, and was crucified so, they might be saved, then they will tell you 'yes', and think nothing of it.

Kids!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Cage,

I like the poem!

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't really understand what you're dithering over. Are you trying to decide whether salvation is a valid thing? Are you trying to decide if it makes sense that a sacrificed avatar can take your sin away? You know, Jesus already died a couple thousand years ago, so it's not as if he's perpetually dying for each person who decides to jump on the life boat. I mean, it was a one time thing for him. So he's already absolved your sin and all you have to do is accept it if you look at it that way. Or, the idea of a sacrificed avatar is a distorted and invalid concept loosely based on Old Testament stuff but convoluted to fit a Pagan theme.

Chris

 

[Cage]

Cage,

I like the poem!

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't really understand what you're dithering over. Are you trying to decide whether salvation is a valid thing? Are you trying to decide if it makes sense that a sacrificed avatar can take your sin away? You know, Jesus already died a couple thousand years ago, so it's not as if he's perpetually dying for each person who decides to jump on the life boat. I mean, it was a one time thing for him. So he's already absolved your sin and all you have to do is accept it if you look at it that way. Or, the idea of a sacrificed avatar is a distorted and invalid concept loosely based on Old Testament stuff but convoluted to fit a Pagan theme.

Chris

Do you think I'm complicated, Chris? It's just how my mind works./shrug

Actually, I think salvation may indeed be a valid concept, only I'm having trouble accepting the idea of Jesus suffering on my behalf. (It's unjust) I'm sorta stuck with the idea that if I accept his suffering for my mistakes, I will be going against what I believe in my heart to be right, and therefore be doing that which is wrong.

I think it is wrong to allow another to be punished for what 'I' did. (If only in spirit)

It's more about the principal behind it all, man. I realize that what's done is done, I'm just finding it hard to accept, so I'm basicly hoping for a way out of my delimma.

I guess, I simply want to pay for my own mistakes, (Whatever that entails) on sheer 'principal', to perhaps absolve myself from giving in to something I believe is wrong. (Accepting the idea of him [Jesus] being punished for what I did.)

Maybe, I'm hoping to show him that I'm willing to die for what I believe is right, and just. Only, it may be a hypocritical stance, as I do want/hope to be accepted in the end, lol.

Jesus spoke much about spirit, and it is in 'spirit', that I won't accept him being punished for my mistakes. Does that make any sense at all?

My mother thinks I'm fighting with God on this one,


TRE-C


~Cage~

 

[Cage]

I'm starting to feel a bit silly about my views, lol!

Do you guys think I should ignore what's in my heart, and accept Jesus' gift of salvation anyway? Because, I'm feeling a bit silly for holding such views at the moment. I think it may be time for me to work this out with God, and pray, and hope he leads me to where I need to be, and what I need to do.

Btw, I'm not going anywhere; I've just decided to reflect on what's been said here, and give it all to God...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and helping me out, guys!


I Love you,



~Cage~

 

[taijasi]

Seems simple enough to me. Jesus was put to death, unjustly. And that's all there is to it, end of story. Yes, it was very sad, because it was truly before his time. This deeply upset his closest of friends, the 12 and 70. And unfortunately, it's caused a lot of confusion ever since. This was not his intent. And neither was his own death, but Humanity was not yet ready for his message 2100 years ago. Perhaps we're ready now? If so, let's demonstrate that. Nothing else matters ...

andrew

 

[Bandit]

Re: I'm starting to feel a bit silly about my views, lol!

Do you guys think I should ignore what's in my heart, and accept Jesus' gift of salvation anyway? Because, I'm feeling a bit silly for holding such views at the moment. I think it may be time for me to work this out with God, and pray, and hope he leads me to where I need to be, and what I need to do.

Btw, I'm not going anywhere; I've just decided to reflect on what's been said here, and give it all to God...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and helping me out, guys!


I Love you,



~Cage~

i think you should study the scriptures more about this. Shut yourself into a closet with God...in a secret place with God. pray before & after you study & ask God to reveal to you why Jesus laid down his life for His sheep. His entire ministry is surrounded by his DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION. there are many reasons behind this act of love & Jesus shedding his innocent blood for the remission of sins.

asking questions like this in a forum, especially like this one, you will get all kinds of answers.

 

[Cage]

I understand now, I think?

I appologize for posting one after another, haha! I'm just excited and wanted your thoughts. I think I understand the concept of Salvation now, and that it is NOT wrong to embrace it.

It's funny, I was laying in bed thinking about this discussion, and picking through my Bible looking, and hoping to find something that would make things 'click', but I found nothing. I lay my Bible down beside me, then closed my eyes, and simply contemplated on what has already been said in this discussion.

Then, something came over me, a deeper understanding, and a deeper Love, and a deeper peace then what I'm accustomed to. I can't explain it, but it was an amazing experience, and I was fully touched by it...

I think what made it click, and resonate within was this part of scripture:

Matthew 18:3-4

3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I thought to myself: "Is this what I'm missing?" that I need to humble myself like a little child, and accept that there are some things, I simply cannot do on my own. I need to silence my pride, embrace my Fathers will, and maintain this humble Spirit. Because, all children need a provider, why would I be any different, if I am indeed a child of God? I think we are all God's children, and perhaps it's time I let him (God) be a father to me?

I hope that I'm making sense, because I am extremely tired, and in a bit of a daze, lol!

I think what I'm trying to say is I need my Father to protect me, and provide for me, that which I cannot provide for myself. My mother said I have been fighting with God, and I think I see her point now. Children often rebel against their parents, and hold the view that they 'know' what's best for them. I can't help, but laugh at this, because this is exactly what I have been doing with God.

All God is trying to do is give me something I can't obtain through my own actions, and Love me. He gave me his Son to be my Shepherd; he gave me a chance to accept what my Shepherd did for me, so that I might be saved through 'his' efforts.

John 10:7-11

7. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

You may disagree, but if Jesus is God in the Flesh, then wouldn't that make him my father, as God is my 'Heavenly' father? What good father/shepherd wouldn't die to protect their children, and what good father/shepherd wouldn't suffer great pains to keep their children safe?

I think I realize now, that it's not my choice to make, but rather my 'duty' as a child, to be grateful, and honor what he (Jesus) did on the cross for me. He was merely being my provider, and protecter; and isn't THAT what a father is in the end? You know, he suffered many things Loving me, and I think if I didn't emrace what he did, I would be doing him a great injustice.

Forget principal, CR!

I was was wrong to deny that kind of Love!

Even so, a father is also a childs example, as well as teacher. Throughout Jesus' life on this earth, he displayed a Love like no other, and I think this is his 'true' cause. That we (Mankind) might follow his example, and become good shepherds/stewards/servants to others, and to this earth ourselves...


~Cage~

 

[seattlegal]

Re: I'm starting to feel a bit silly about my views, lol!

Do you guys think I should ignore what's in my heart, and accept Jesus' gift of salvation anyway? Because, I'm feeling a bit silly for holding such views at the moment. I think it may be time for me to work this out with God, and pray, and hope he leads me to where I need to be, and what I need to do.

Btw, I'm not going anywhere; I've just decided to reflect on what's been said here, and give it all to God...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and helping me out, guys!


I Love you,



~Cage~

Hello, Cage. There is no need to ignore what is in your heart. It's causing you to examine the situation further. I hope these two passages might be of help to you in your predicament, and give you a fresh, and perhaps helpful perspective:

Matt 6:14-15 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 23:33-43 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”
36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”
38 And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[Dondi]

Re: I understand now, I think?

I appologize for posting one after another, haha! I'm just excited and wanted your thoughts. I think I understand the concept of Salvation now, and that it is NOT wrong to embrace it.

It's funny, I was laying in bed thinking about this discussion, and picking through my Bible looking, and hoping to find something that would make things 'click', but I found nothing. I lay my Bible down beside me, then closed my eyes, and simply contemplated on what has already been said in this discussion.

Then, something came over me, a deeper understanding, and a deeper Love, and a deeper peace then what I'm accustomed to. I can't explain it, but it was an amazing experience, and I was fully touched by it...

I thought to myself: "Is this what I'm missing?" that I need to humble myself like a little child, and accept that there are some things, I simply cannot do on my own. I need to silence my pride, embrace my Fathers will, and maintain this humble Spirit. Because, all children need a provider, why would I be any different, if I am indeed a child of God? I think we are all God's children, and perhaps it's time I let him (God) be a father to me?

I think what I'm trying to say is I need my Father to protect me, and provide for me, that which I cannot provide for myself. My mother said I have been fighting with God, and I think I see her point now. Children often rebel against their parents, and hold the view that they 'know' what's best for them. I can't help, but laugh at this, because this is exactly what I have been doing with God.

All God is trying to do is give me something I can't obtain through my own actions, and Love me. He gave me his Son to be my Shepherd; he gave me a chance to accept what my Shepherd did for me, so that I might be saved through 'his' efforts.

~Cage~

Bingo!

I realize that you have to find these sort of things out for yourself. Even now, I think about things TOO deeply and need to step back and look at things through the eyes of a child, and realize that God just wants to provide for me:

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." - Matthew 6:25-33