The Cross

[Quahom1]

The idolization of symbols deserves ridicule, whether it's the image of Mohamed or the symbol of the cross. The fact that people are willing to kill to protect the honor of a symbol speaks to the need for artistic irreverence.

The rememberance of symbols keep us ever mindful of why we are to behave in certain fashion, since it is obvious we can't do it for our own sake.

Ever consider that?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

Well, I'd wait awhile until the sediment went to base, pull the cross out of the "water" left behind, leave the jar open to the atmosphere to evaporate, then take the powder at the base and spread it over the roots of a rose bush...

Amazing what "piss" can do to a rose bush.

 

[Nick_A]

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

It's not that there is something "wrong" with it but rather it reveals us for what we are. Our egotism and its imagined self importance has become so dominant that many no longer respect sacred symbols and their value for our being. The purpose of art is now to provoke dialogue. Calling it expression devalues its importance so we prefer to call it art and devalue art instead.

What a species we've become.

 

[Only Special To God]

Hello Ian

I'm not sure who you are angry with but I hope it's not me. The whole idea of this thread is to suggest that the Cross is a sacred symbol that has meanings within meanings. For you when seen as a crucifix it represents the horrors of the Crucifixion. However taking it deeper the crucifixion itself provides a beneficial effect on Man's being. If Christ volunteers for this, it must have a good reason.

We have four alternatives. We can simply not care, think we already understand its depth so it is not worth pondering, seek to become open to what we don't understand, or ridicule what we don't understand.

It just surprises me that ridiculing is a close second to not caring. having respect for sacred symbols is an expression of experienced humility.

I'm not Jewish. I've had my recent friction with representatives of secular Judaism over its attitude as to non recognition of the Armenian Genocide. But these are individuals and are in no way indicative of the depth of the Star of David. So I am humbled by the symbol and sickened by those like Foxman of the ADL.

The point is that sacred symbols express the quality of understanding that leads to help for Mankind. The fact that they are so easily ridiculed is just a further indication of how little we understand and conequently how little collective hope we have for a better future.

Hello Nick,
After finishing a floor tiling task, showering, shaving and downing a couple of shots of 100 proof South Comfort, I thought that I would just try to pry open my mind and read slower as to what you have to say.

First off *extending hand to shake*, "please accept my apology. For flying off the handle. I saw a word, then another word and then I just totally lost it. I am very immature and unknowledgeable in certain areas of life. I am hoping that you will pardon my bad behavior. I am also learning to converse with people, too! I have lived somewhat of a cloistered life. Work, home and work.

I feel like a sponge by being here with everyone. I am enjoying it immensely. You can have words and there is not hitting. You can give your opinion how you feel and there is no punishment that you must face.

"THANK YOU", so much for taking the time to explain to me how I had misunderstood what you were trying to say. By you trying to help me understand has made me feel better, as I am not accustomed to that. Thank you again Nick for making time for me as it is very much appreciated!

I really hope that I don't see something like that out in public, as I would probably be arrested.

I have so much to learn. I wear my crucifix everyday, as I also pray throughout the day. It is comforting to me to not feel so alone knowing that God and Jesus are always with me.

God Bless
Ian

 

[Nick_A]

Hi Ian

Nothing like a good handshake to turn the page. It seems as though you've had a lot of trouble with violence. If at some point you'd like to discuss it, we could do it. I'm disturbed by what you wrote in that no one should feel intimidated for raising questions and worry about hitting. Granted you cannot be hit on the Internet but the Internet shouldn't replace healthy dialogue in real life. Perhaps the Internet can be a beginning for something better.

I'm glad you are enjoying participating. It is unfortunate that my attempt at clarification should be so out of the norm for you. It should be the norm for ALL in real life.

"Questioning makes one open, makes one sensitive, makes one humble. We don't suffer from our questions, we suffer from our answers. Most of the mischief in the world comes from people with answers, not from people with questions." Jacob Needleman

Seems like you are having trouble in real life with violent people with "answers." Here we can be free to share questions.

 

[17th Angel]

I really hope that I don't see something like that out in public, as I would probably be arrested.

..What would JC do?

 

[Only Special To God]

Hi Ian

Nothing like a good handshake to turn the page. It seems as though you've had a lot of trouble with violence. If at some point you'd like to discuss it, we could do it. I'm disturbed by what you wrote in that no one should feel intimidated for raising questions and worry about hitting. Granted you cannot be hit on the Internet but the Internet shouldn't replace healthy dialogue in real life. Perhaps the Internet can be a beginning for something better.

I'm glad you are enjoying participating. It is unfortunate that my attempt at clarification should be so out of the norm for you. It should be the norm for ALL in real life.



Seems like you are having trouble in real life with violent people with "answers." Here we can be free to share questions.

Hello Nick,
Thank you again for understanding. Alot of people will not take the time or effort, to try to find out why someone had gotten upset.

Yes, I have had more than my fair share of violence, but that is in the past now. Thank you for the offer, but those are scars that I will carry for the rest of my life. I just try to not let it cloud my vision or close my heart to people. As I do know that all people are not that way, and so it would not be fair to them or to me to judge them from past experiences.

I am the one who was unfortunate, because I did not take the time to finish reading what you were speaking about. I am so sorry for my haste in reading your post. I have learned a valuable lesson from this, and you are being a good person to me.

No, the internet is not replacing healthy dialogue in real life, here in this forum, I am becoming more understanding of people, their opinions and their ideals. I am learning on how to talk with people, other than what transpires in real life...which is the general cordial oral communication of every day life.

Yes, I am learning that everyone is free to ask questions and get replies to what they think, feel and what knowledge that they have.....And I think that it is great!

Thank you again, Nick! :0}

God Bless
Ian

 

[Quahom1]

Hello Nick,
Thank you again for understanding. Alot of people will not take the time or effort, to try to find out why someone had gotten upset.

Yes, I have had more than my fair share of violence, but that is in the past now. Thank you for the offer, but those are scars that I will carry for the rest of my life. I just try to not let it cloud my vision or close my heart to people. As I do know that all people are not that way, and so it would not be fair to them or to me to judge them from past experiences...

Scars, will disappear with time and proper care.

v/r

Q

 

[Only Special To God]

..What would JC do?

I am not sure Alex! But, I do recollect a story about him tearing down a temple!

I am sorry, but I think that would be considered sacrilege, and should not be shown out in public. If someone wants to see something like that in private, that is their business. But, I would prefer not to be subjected to someones idea of art that is in bad taste. How do you explain something like that to children and or teenagers?

I feel that the cross/crucifix should be revered, not be vitiated.

God Bless, brother
Ian

 

[17th Angel]

I am not sure Alex! But, I do recollect a story about him tearing down a temple!

I am sorry, but I think that would be considered sacrilege, and should not be shown out in public. If someone wants to see something like that in private, that is their business. But, I would prefer not to be subjected to someones idea of art that is in bad taste. How do you explain something like that to children and or teenagers?

I feel that the cross/crucifix should be revered, not be vitiated.

God Bless, brother
Ian

I am pretty sure that he'd 'turn the other cheek' lol it's just a photo... To lower one's self to anger and violence because of a photograph... Seems, petty.

 

[Only Special To God]

Scars, will disappear with time and proper care.

v/r

Q

You are correct in some aspects Q. It is just some go a little deeper than most, and some it feels like they will never heal. But, I am forever hopeful, and I always feel that God has gotten me this far, and I am anxious to see what he has in store for me next. As life does keep getting better and better as I go forward in life.

Thank you Q.
God Bless
Ian

 

[Only Special To God]

I am pretty sure that he'd 'turn the other cheek' lol it's just a photo... To lower one's self to anger and violence because of a photograph... Seems, petty.

We don't know what he would do. ***psst** (the turning of the other cheek, was when he was slapped in the face.)

You are correct in a way Alex, but I can not be the only one who would be upset by seeing something like that.

No violence, well maybe a little fire in the backyard BBQ grill.....starting with the picture! lol

Ian

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

It's not that there is something "wrong" with it but rather it reveals us for what we are. Our egotism and its imagined self importance has become so dominant that many no longer respect sacred symbols and their value for our being. The purpose of art is now to provoke dialogue. Calling it expression devalues its importance so we prefer to call it art and devalue art instead.

What a species we've become.

Symbols are like storage devices. Whatever you invest in a symbol you can retrieve and exchange later. Symbols have no inherent value of their own. Whatever shared value they have has been assigned to them by people who agree about the custom and currency of their exchange. Symbols may represent a shared value of sacredness, but they are not themselves sacred. Piss Christ is like a hall of mirrors in that it is a self-explanatory, sort of self-unzipping symbol of the nature of symbols. It is a symbolic critique of the nature of symbolism that self-unwraps for the observer without the need for language beyond it's title. And the protest it generates is valid street theater which becomes part of the performance art surrounding the object.

Chris

 

[Nick_A]

Symbols are like storage devices. Whatever you invest in a symbol you can retrieve and exchange later. Symbols have no inherent value of their own. Whatever shared value they have has been assigned to them by people who agree about the custom and currency of their exchange. Symbols may represent a shared value of sacredness, but they are not themselves sacred. Piss Christ is like a hall of mirrors in that it is a self-explanatory, sort of self-unzipping symbol of the nature of symbols. It is a symbolic critique of the nature of symbolism that self-unwraps for the observer without the need for language beyond it's title. And the protest it generates is valid street theater which becomes part of the performance art surrounding the object.

Chris

Since I believe in an objective reality that is beyond the limitations of our subjective comprehension, it is natural for me to accept the idea of "archetypes" as suggested by Carl Jung for example.

Jungian archetypes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The archetypes form a dynamic substratum common to all humanity, upon the foundation of which each individual builds his own experience of life, developing a unique array of psychological characteristics. Thus, while archetypes themselves may be conceived as a relative few innate nebulous forms, from these may arise innumerable images, symbols and patterns of behavior. While the emerging images and forms are apprehended consciously, the archetypes which inform them are elementary structures which are unconscious and more difficult to apprehend. Being unconscious, the existence of archetypes can only be deduced indirectly by examining behaviour, images, art, myths, etc. They are inherited potentials which are actualized when they enter consciousness as images or manifest in behaviour on interaction with the outside world.

Archetypes are a connection between conscious reality and our subjective interpretations. Piss Christ is just a subjective interpretation arrived at by some person with a need to vent and acquire self importance rather than ponder the archetype itself. Our difference seems to be that you deny the conscious origin of the archetype, while I respect and value it as a connection to consciousness and the cross is just such an archetype.

For you, prostituting it is meaningless because its meaning is just our own creation while to me prostituting it just prevents the archetype from becoming that bridge between conscious reality and our unconscious reactive life. I believe I understand what you mean but must disagree with it since IMO archetypes are connected to objective meaning.

 

[wil]

I am not sure Alex! But, I do recollect a story about him tearing down a temple!

Are you referring to flipping over tables? This is how mythology expands yes?

 

[Dream]

This statement is no longer true: "Being unconscious, the existence of archetypes can only be deduced indirectly by examining behaviour, images, art, myths, etc." The geometric archetypes rule intelligent behavior from the least to the greatest. Geometric appreciation is the underlying principle that drives all intelligence we've seen on earth so far. That is, time-dependent variances in sensation are basic triggers for neural activity. That's why when you hear a song you like, then just like a drug your brain will probably want to experience it again.

Geometric appreciation appears to be the underlying principle by which our facilities are activated and without which excitation for complex behavior ceases. This is really what Nick_A's words express to me when he says "The archetypes form a dynamic substratum common to all humanity, upon the foundation of which each individual builds his own experience of life, developing a unique array of psychological characteristics." Geometry lights up the mind, accounts for our appreciation of tonality and harmony in music and our strong reaction to certain ratios in figures - such as the golden mean. It is probably why babies die when they are not touched, why music is so attractive, how feng-shui works, and how people are sexy.

Now if you take any figure and focus upon it intently you will begin to appreciate many aspect of it that you didn't before as your mind attempts to 'Zen' itself to the object -- meaning you will strain to find neural excitation in it. Focus your mind on a circle, square, hexagon, person's face, or any other figure. Do it for long enough and you will discover relationships in it you hadn't noticed in it before. Don't do it for too long, because there is a limit to your mental energy. You may begin to hallucinate relationships that aren't there. Similarly, a favorite song can eventually become tiresome.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Since I believe in an objective reality that is beyond the limitations of our subjective comprehension, it is natural for me to accept the idea of "archetypes" as suggested by Carl Jung for example.

Jungian archetypes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The archetypes form a dynamic substratum common to all humanity, upon the foundation of which each individual builds his own experience of life, developing a unique array of psychological characteristics. Thus, while archetypes themselves may be conceived as a relative few innate nebulous forms, from these may arise innumerable images, symbols and patterns of behavior. While the emerging images and forms are apprehended consciously, the archetypes which inform them are elementary structures which are unconscious and more difficult to apprehend. Being unconscious, the existence of archetypes can only be deduced indirectly by examining behaviour, images, art, myths, etc. They are inherited potentials which are actualized when they enter consciousness as images or manifest in behaviour on interaction with the outside world.

Archetypes are a connection between conscious reality and our subjective interpretations. Piss Christ is just a subjective interpretation arrived at by some person with a need to vent and acquire self importance rather than ponder the archetype itself. Our difference seems to be that you deny the conscious origin of the archetype, while I respect and value it as a connection to consciousness and the cross is just such an archetype.

For you, prostituting it is meaningless because its meaning is just our own creation while to me prostituting it just prevents the archetype from becoming that bridge between conscious reality and our unconscious reactive life. I believe I understand what you mean but must disagree with it since IMO archetypes are connected to objective meaning.

I'm hip to archetypes and symbols, I just don't venerate them. If I look up from the keyboard, on the book cubby right in front of my face with my reference books is Jung's Man And His Symbols. I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just wanted to take a different tack to show why Piss Christ is legitimate art. I figured I'm the only one who will do it.

Chris

 

[Nick_A]

I'm hip to archetypes and symbols, I just don't venerate them. If I look up from the keyboard, on the book cubby right in front of my face with my reference books is Jung's Man And His Symbols. I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just wanted to take a different tack to show why Piss Christ is legitimate art. I figured I'm the only one who will do it.

Chris

You call Piss Christ legitimate art. Naturally this raises the question of your definition of art and specifically "legitimate art." If everyome makes up their own definition then it has no meaning and anything is legitimate art. So what is your definition?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You call Piss Christ legitimate art. Naturally this raises the question of your definition of art and specifically "legitimate art." If everyome makes up their own definition then it has no meaning and anything is legitimate art. So what is your definition?

No.

Chris