What Does The NT Say About Use Of Force?

[Thomas]

The above should read 'please don't do this' ...

Disney may be a bit unfair, but you do present a rather sentimental idealised version of Christ. It's a post-modern eisegesis.

It presents the idea of Jesus Christ as a visionary, or a mystic, or an avatar or whatever syncretic amalgam of various teachings people want to put together.

As for the 'nuclear option', well it's hard not to see it as that when you dismiss core notions, such as the reliability of the sacred scribe. That then leaves you free to cherry-pick the bits you like, but then those 'cherries' are a priori debased on the principle that, according to your reading, they're just more old campfire exaggerations of old men pushing an agenda.

So for me its 'nuclear' because one is logically obliged to apply that rule to the entire text, not simply the bits that don't sit right with you.

If the miracle is hyperbole, then why is not the metaphor that the miracle is supposed to represent equally hyperbole ... equally nothing more than a fireside exaggeration?

Take the case of the sight restored to the blind man. Your reading is the restoration is not of physical sight, but of spiritual insight – a claim made by many – but the text itself refutes that as the man himself claims to have no spiritual insight at all!

So not only does the miracle fall, the metaphor falls along with it. You're left with nothing.

It seems to me you make 'stream-of-consciousness' statements but you don't follow them through to their logical and rational conclusions, and then when people like myself or ACOT or DA say, 'well logically then ... ' you do everything to avoid actually addressing the issue.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Lux –

How does one achieve #3?? If Buddhism teaches that, I'm all for it, tho I don't know anything about it!!

Practice ... practice ... practice.

There's a story of a samurai who lived in the last days of the old shogunate, Yamaoka Tesshu.

In the 1880s, a civil was was raging. The old shogunate had barricaded themselves in Edo Castle, and placed sentries along both sides of the road, ten metres apart, to stop anyone approaching.

Tesshu just ... walked down the road and knocked on the door. He was shown into the HQ and at one point someone, trying to figure out how the hell he got through all the checkpoints, asked, "Did you happen to see any of our guards on the way here?" "Oh yes," Tesshu replied. "Hundreds of them. Very impressive!"

Another story tells of an assassin hired to kill him. The man had a reputation as a close-quarters killer who specialised in neck-breaking. The assassin followed Tesshu, but every time he was ready to make his move, Tesshu would turn aside, step into a shop, or do something else to forestall him. Eventually Tesshu was in a bar, having a drink, and the man came up and sat beside him.
"I've been after you all day," he said, "But you got me every time."
"Really" Tesshu asked. "What were you going to do?" "Break your neck" "How, show me." Tesshu then let the man put him in a headlock, but the assassin, for some reason, could not carry it through. The assassin gave up and left.

Oh I see, I didn't have to worry about my French (I wonder if French abhor this expression?), which I sometimes use for emphasis, which my wife disapproves of.

I'm pretty sure my tutors would disapprove of me

BTW, I have a perfect picture of 'archangels' ...

My favourite angel is Bruno Ganz in Wings of Desire.

How about this music clip. Perhaps you're thinking about something similar to what happens at 2 minutes into the video? (tho the singer does it with God's Word rather than the eye.)

Enjoyed that. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 13: "If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal... "
This is a letter Paul wrote to the first church he founded, and boy, was he pissed with them! All manner of politics and infighting was going on, and when word got to Paul he hit the roof!

The tradition holds that Paul would recite and scribes would copy it down – it is said that Origen would recite six different topics to six different scribes simultaneously, moving from one to the next, so that by the time he got back to the first, the scribe had caught up with what he had said.

I sometimes picture the scribe looking up and saying, "Paul, you can't say that!" And Paul saying "You just bloody-well write what I tell you!"

There's a brief monologue that starts at 2m 25s in the video and it's from the book The Message by Eugene H. Peterson... I'm considering getting this book. Have you ever taken a look at it?

No, sorry.

 

[wil]

Your reading is the restoration is not of physical sight, but of spiritual insight – a claim made by many – but the text itself refutes that as the man himself claims to have no spiritual insight at all!

Did I say someplace this is my version?? I am confused.

reliability of the sacred scribe?

We both know the sacred scribe made many mistakes and changes...

 

[Ahanu]

I'm also interested in the perspective from Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religions. (I got the Islamic perspective, thanks Joe.)

If any religion pledges 'no force' even in self-defense, those believers of the religion also have to object to having a military, and a police force, don't they? "I won't use force because of my religious belief, but if someone does that to protect me and my family, I welcome it." ... This really doesn't make much sense to me.

I hope I'm not painting myself, with this thread and the other one, as an easily excitable Rambo wannabe. I have a few police officers in my family and one of my nephews is thinking of joining the military. So we talk about this nature of things often. I sincerely want to know about the morality in a use of force and how God would see it, now that I became a believer.

Hi Lux,

Baha'is say Jesus would do the same as Muhammad in similar circumstances. We also say Matthew 5.39 doesn't forbid the protection of others. In my opinion, Christ didn't fight because the time and situation called for nonviolence. The Roman Empire crushed all would-be militant messiahs and their followers. It didn't take a prophet to understand the suicidal nature of militancy, but for many people during that time, zeal overran commonsense. Furthermore, unlike the first Muslims during Muhammad's lifetime, none of the first Christians during Jesus' lifetime were attacked.

Speaking of the military, early Christians didn't participate in the Roman military. Many of the early Church Fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, and Origen) didn't allow war. When a Roman soldier named Martin of Tours (316-397) was baptized as a Christian, he quit his occupation as a soldier: "I am a soldier of Christ," he said, "I'm not allowed to fight." I thought you might find that interesting. Augustine (350-430) was the first to teach a just war around the time of the Roman Empire's collapse.