What are we to make of the book of Job?

stellaluna

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I've heard countless sermons about Job, most of which focus on the role of friends during trials and suffering OR try to prove that God isn't a monster playing games with the life of a human.

I'm not sure. o_O

I think, for a Christian, one must eventually decide whether God has a hand in everything that happens to a person or whether God has set things in motion and is more of an observer. I tend toward the latter, but I feel Job is pretty cruel overall, even if--maybe especially if--you believe the former.
 
I read most the bible(especially Job) as my story, my history... All the players part of my psyche.

Now I am not saying my actual history, but examples of the internal fights that go on inside of each of us, and lessons/examples of choices in those situations.
 
To clarify, not all is history. But understanding how the situation played out with biblical characters allows us to contemplate ramifications of our own actions and decisions.
 
I've heard countless sermons about Job, most of which focus on the role of friends during trials and suffering OR try to prove that God isn't a monster playing games with the life of a human.

The Book of Job tackles one of the fundamental issues of Theodicy – Why do bad things happen to good people?

I was looking round and found this – An essay by Ethan Dor-Shav available here

It's worth a read, but I've pulled out the bit that interested me:

"... what need is there for this book at all, let alone for such a long one? The wisdom literature of the ancient East, as well as the Hebrew Bible itself, is rich with such trials, but they are most notable for their brevity. The binding of Isaac, for example, is described in a few verses. Even God’s revelation to Abraham about his motive for demanding the sacrifice is delivered not in a fanciful monologue, but in a single sentence ... The Book of Job, by contrast, consists of forty-two chapters between the culmination of Job’s misfortunes and his eventual reward. More important, these poetic chapters — Job’s dialogues with his three friends, followed by the oration of Elihu, and finally God’s revelation — consistently reject any interpretation of Job’s suffering as a mere challenge.

"... In order to propose a deeper and more comprehensive interpretation of the Book of Job, one must be willing to look beyond the book’s prosaic opening chapter and the simplistic meaning it evokes. Moreover, we must credit the book’s author with a mastery of literary nuance, in addition to his universally acknowledged poetic genius."

"... What is this alternate narrative? To begin with, it is defined by two extremes: Who and what Job is at the beginning of the story and who and what he is at the end. If we acknowledge as our starting point the radical idea that the early Job is not portrayed as a saint, but rather as a severely flawed individual, the tale of suffering that constitutes the book proves to be quite different from the accepted interpretation. It is not a story of sheer endurance and blind faith but one of existential awakening, leading to the attainment of prophecy in the book’s final scenes. The story, in other words, is about one man’s painstaking ascendance from a normative religious life to a deeply spiritual one. As this process takes place, the narrative also expounds on the biblical secrets of the cosmic order, the nature of man, and, above all, heavenly redemption through the light of wisdom.

"... Interpreted this way, the Book of Job deals with a very different question ... how a man’s honest response to worldly suffering serves as the basis for his awakening and enlightenment. Indeed, the forty oft-dismissed “interim” chapters of the Book of Job tell the story, step by excruciating step, of one man’s eventual direct experience of God. His suffering plays a critical role in his ethical, intellectual, and spiritual transformation, enabling him to move from egoism to morality, from ignorance to wisdom, and, finally, from alienation from God to a personal relationship with him. Over the course of the book, Job becomes a true tzadik, or righteous man; a hacham, or sage; and finally, a navi, or prophet. No transformation is more profound.

This makes sense to me, indeed I will look at the book afresh. It's the path to Enlightenment.

I think, for a Christian, one must eventually decide whether God has a hand in everything that happens to a person or whether God has set things in motion and is more of an observer.

I tend to sit somewhere between the two, that God is immanently present to creation, but God is not a micromanager.

I take my cue from Luke 13:1-5 "And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish."

The point to me is God is not punishing certain people because of their iniquities. It's the nature of the world, things happen, fortunate or unfortunate ... but whether or not, really that should not factor into the equation, everyone needs to work towards their enlightenment/salvation.
 
Even when it all turns out terrible, a person like Job will pray.

That's the takeaway I have.

To me it's not about good or evil, or why bad things happen, it's an acknowledgement that things happen and that no matter what, Job was steadfast. Capricious gods and demons, friends who are not helpful, a creator who is weirdly defensive about his creation ("you were't there, this is complicated stuff that requires a lot of wisdom, you know") - Job has his ups and downs, but he sticks it through out of sheer Job-ness.

Something to remember when doing spiritual exercises, retreats, daily devotion, whatever. Stick to it, prayer, meditation, postures, ritual, song, whatever it is one is doing, don't quit. When the going gets tough and all hell breaks loose and one wants to be pack up and leave - stick it through, like Job.

Like I said, that's my takeaway, and yes, there is a lot of interesting stuff in the various speeches, but they are not conclusive, any of them, not even God's final words on the matter are really satisfactory.

Only Job really gets it, because he keeps going.
 
daily devotion, whatever. Stick to it, prayer, meditation, postures, ritual, song, whatever it is one is doing, don't quit. When the going gets tough and all hell breaks loose
It is how I feel about the knowledge that "it is all good", that " and this too shall pass", that "all is in order". And I need to do NOTHING but stay positive and wait for a clearer understanding.

It is when I leave that path, that perceived troubles befall me. It is interesting that when my heart blew up during the " worst" two weeks for me and my family...my memory was erased...I endured none of it.
 
Interesting, thanks wil! What do you make of that? Are you glad about the amnesia?

Job didn't manage to stay positive all the time, but he still kept going...
 
Interestingly enough I lost the two days before the incident and day of. Those days bothered me. Months later during recovery a friend sent me video of me at a gathering on Saturday and told me some things I was up to Sunday, nobody knows about Monday. Watching the video is like watching someone else's video. I see/hear me talking and laughing and know it is me, but feel like I am watching someone else. It was Monday night my aorta blew out. I don't feel a need to know now. I lose my rose.colored glasses to often and it does irritate me.
 
I've heard countless sermons about Job, most of which focus on the role of friends during trials and suffering OR try to prove that God isn't a monster playing games with the life of a human.

I'm not sure. o_O

I think, for a Christian, one must eventually decide whether God has a hand in everything that happens to a person or whether God has set things in motion and is more of an observer. I tend toward the latter, but I feel Job is pretty cruel overall, even if--maybe especially if--you believe the former.

It's always a game between God and Satan that it may at any point go out of the comprehension of humans. Job is not a usual person. God revealed Himself to Job. Job is thus a witness.

Now 10 out of 11 direct disciples of Jesus martyred themselves. Do they actually know why they have to be martyred? They don't.

John 21:21-22
When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.

Peter was confused about why John was spared from the martyrdom.


Can God's job be done without their martyrdom? The answer is no. Are they given the explanation why it's necessary. No, they are not explained. They are just asked to die. Because 1) it's not easy to explain everything to humans, especially ancient humans. 2) it's a matter of timing. It may not be the right time to explain the details. Say, OT is not the right time to give detail explanation of Jesus. There's always a point of time where a revelation is deemed proper. However before this point, a prophet may be asked to die (or suffer if you like the term) without given any explanation.
 
It's always a game between God and Satan that it may at any point go out of the comprehension of humans.
Is it? Is this not assuming that God and Satan are like men, and play games?

Can God's job be done without their martyrdom? The answer is no.
Why? What did their martyrdom achieve that Christ did not?
 
Job like all the other books of the Bible are totally human productions with no input from any god, which in all probability doesn't actually exist.
 
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