Salvation and Belief

muhammad_isa said:
"It is said that" seems to be a favourite Asian phrase. I hear it in the Muslim Asian community quite often :)
Never has impressed me .. it holds no authority.

Anybody could have said it, for any reason :)
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Don't listen to them Muslim orientals, got it.

It was "said" by Brahma in the verses above:

In the Brahma-saṁhitā (5.52) it is stated:
yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ
rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ
yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
"Let me worship," Lord Brahmā said, "the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda (Kṛṣṇa),
who is the original person and under whose order the sun,
which is the king of all planets, is assuming immense power and heat.
The sun represents the eye of the Lord and traverses its orbit in obedience to His order."

"yac cakṣur eṣa savitā"
"The sun represents the eye of the Lord"
"rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ"
"under whose order the sun, which is the king of all planets,
is assuming immense power and heat"
 
As there have been many assertions on this thread that mankind needs authentic* "divine guidance" and such then contrasted with other forms of guidance which in effect are dismissed as "hearsay", I have posted a new thread on the Buddhist Section, "Thus have I heard".

The attempt is made to convey what might be called the "asian mindset", to say that there a different way of authenticating "guidance" prevails.

*Obviously, what is actually "authentic" is a subject of great scholarly debate. I have had many friendly (!) debates with those who assert that I am in fact "arguing with God" rather than them, yet each subscribing to different "words of God" with diverse interpretations.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
..I have had many friendly (!) debates with those who assert that I am in fact "arguing with God" rather than them, yet each subscribing to different "words of God" with diverse interpretations.
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It won't work in the end, you know .. divide & rule, that is ;)

Jesus, peace be with him, will eventually return to planet earth.
He will unite the world .. but not without a period of severe strife, admittedly.
After all, why did G-d cause him to ascend to heaven?
Clearly, the time wasn't right .. not long to go now .. we are living in unprecedented times.
Air travel is common .. fast communication .. serious divisions in societies around the world.

The "Western model" i.e. capitalism, is in danger of causing armageddon.
Climate-change, drought, starvation, disease, economic collapse etc.

..and we have "the two Ronnies" .. I think you know who I mean ;)
 
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muhammad_isa said:
It won't work in the end, you know .. divide & rule, that is ;)
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You might not believe this but I assure you it is true. Telling one such Voice of God that I had heard many such claims, each proclaiming a different truth/theology, he answered "Well they are wrong and I am right". Superb! I really could not argue with him! (For various reasons)
 
CobblersApprentice said:
..Telling one such Voice of God that I had heard many such claims, each proclaiming a different truth/theology, he answered "Well they are wrong and I am right"..
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I know :D
As I say, when Jesus returns and claims that, I for one, will not argue.
If he claims that he is "the son of G-d", no problem..
If he claims that he is the devil, I don't think that he could be Jesus .. only evil people would follow such a person!

It will be obvious to believers that he is who he claims to be.
G-d guides whomsoever He wills. Did you call it "grace"? :)
 
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muhammad_isa said:
I know :D
As I say, when Jesus returns and claims that, I for one, will not argue.
If he claims that he is "the son of G-d", no problem..
If he claims that he is the devil, I don't think that he could be Jesus .. only evil people would follow such a person!

It will be obvious to believers that he is who he claims to be.
G-d guides whomsoever He wills. Did you call it "grace"? :)
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Well, there you go again. "Us" and "evil" people.

No, I don't think you have got the idea about grace.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Well, there you go again. "Us" and "evil" people.

No, I don't think you have got the idea about grace.
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You deny there are good people and evil people?
What do we mean by that?
We are really talking about people's behaviour.

eg. Somebody might be a heroin addict, and regularly robs anybody, including their own family.
That person might not be categorically evil, but their behaviour certainly is.
That is why they might end up in jail!

Your attitude about righteousness ignores reality, imo
 
muhammad_isa said:
You deny there are good people and evil people?
What do we mean by that?
We are really talking about people's behaviour.

eg. Somebody might be a heroin addict, and regularly robs anybody, including their own family.
That person might not be categorically evil, but their behaviour certainly is.
That is why they might end up in jail!

Your attitude about righteousness ignores reality, imo
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I feel we are coming from different perspectives and maybe the "Argument by Relegation" (mentioned elsewhere) becomes relevant - though just what - or who - ends up being relegated I'm not so sure.......:)

I think I have posted before:- "Evil people? We are all evil." So yes, I do recognise "evil" people. It is the division we make between ourselves and others that is relevant.

You have acknowledged the Gospels as "authentic". Jesus says there :- "Judge not lest ye be judged". Again, the story of the Pharisee who exclaims, "God, I thank you that I am not like other men" - a man who Jesus condemns.

Yes, there are graduations of wrong-doing. But from my perspective, this is not the point. Grace is the point, in which we "live and move and have our being."

But I must thank you. In reflecting upon this it brings a little clarity to some words of Dogen, from his Genjokoan, which I have wrestled with on and off inbetween sessions of Soda Crush Candy Saga (level 1545 and rising)
 
CobblersApprentice said:
..You have acknowledged the Gospels as "authentic". Jesus says there :- "Judge not lest ye be judged"..
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Quoting out of context does not help us understand a subject.
Jesus, peace be with him, was not advocating anarchy. There needs to be law, necessarily.
There needs to be judges and juries.

CobblersApprentice said:
Yes, there are graduations of wrong-doing. But from my perspective, this is not the point. Grace is the point, in which we "live and move and have our being."
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You speak as if religion should be somehow divorced from reality.
If somebody burgled your home or you were attacked, would you not call the police?

I repeat .. unrighteous people will deny Jesus when he returns.
It's always been like that on earth, and always will be.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Quoting out of context does not help us understand a subject.
Jesus, peace be with him, was not advocating anarchy. There needs to be law, necessarily.
There needs to be judges and juries.



You speak as if religion should be somehow divorced from reality.
If somebody burgled your home or you were attacked, would you not call the police?

I repeat .. unrighteous people will deny Jesus when he returns.
It's always been like that on earth, and always will be.
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Sorry, you miss/ignore/are not interested in/are blind to, the perspective I spoke of.

From this perspective it is you who is divorced from reality.

Once again, the "Argument by Relegation" is relevant.
 
muhammad_isa said:
I repeat .. unrighteous people will deny Jesus when he returns.
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The perspective I am seeking to speak of would be more concerned, not with who will acknowledge Jesus when he returns, but who Jesus will "acknowledge" as having "known" Him.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Quoting out of context does not help us understand a subject.
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The "subject" was - at least for me - our different perspectives. I was seeking to explain mine.

The quote was NOT in any way "out of context". You have said you acknowledge the Gospels as the authentic "Word of God". You have claimed to acknowledge Him (Jesus), to recognise Him. The words quoted were those of Jesus speaking directly to His disciples (and those who would seek to acknowledge Him)

Quite what saying He was not advocating anarchy has got to do with it escapes me.

"My kingdom is not of this world"
 
@muhammad_isa maybe I am being unclear. When I speak of the/our different perspectives I am not referring to our two ways of addressing the same thing i.e. Crime, punishment of crime whatever, and thus rejecting your points. I am happy to acknowledge them. I am not an anarchist and recognise the need for courts etc. I have already acknowledged graduations of wrong doing.

As I indicate by reference to the Argument by Relegation, I am seeking to draw your attention to another perspective entirely.

That is as plain as I can make it.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
..maybe I am being unclear. When I speak of the/our different perspectives I am not referring to our two ways of addressing the same thing i.e. Crime, punishment of crime whatever, and thus rejecting your points. I am happy to acknowledge them
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Right, so you understand that evil is part of reality.
If I understand you correctly, you object to me accusing those who deny Jesus when he returns, as being evil
i.e. the "us" and "them" thing
[ never mind the fact that they will be trying to kill him, as they did last time he was here ]

It's your opinion. :)

You probably judge what is evil by the values of society around you .. what you were brought up with.
Many other nations have their own values, and as I say, in times gone by, most people's values were different.
Is this reasonable? Do moral values change that much? Can we all be right?

CobblersApprentice said:
As I indicate by reference to the Argument by Relegation, I am seeking to draw your attention to another perspective entirely.

That is as plain as I can make it.
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I'm aware that you refer to "another perspective" .. psychology is complex .. we often like to ignore things that we don't like or understand.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Perhaps you'd like to tell me what the context actually was in this saying of his?
Was he saying it in a court of law, for example? :)
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I gave the context. It was a Sermon (The Sermon on the Mount) He was addressing either just His disciples or "the multitude/crowds" - the text seems unclear) Thus He was giving a series of teachings/instructions. Do not judge lest ye be judged.

 
muhammad_isa said:
Right, so you understand that evil is part of reality.
If I understand you correctly, you object to me accusing those who deny Jesus when he returns, as evil
i.e. the "us" and "them" thing

It's your opinion. :)

You probably judge what is evil by the values of society around you .. what you were brought up with.
Many other nations have their own values, and as I say, in times gone by, most people's values were different.
Is this reasonable? Do moral values change that much? Can we all be right?



I'm aware that you refer to "another perspective" .. psychology is complex .. we often like to ignore things that we don't like or understand.
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No, you do not understand me correctly. I have sought to be clear. I have failed.
 
We agree .. it is correct :)

I'm not ignoring you, btw .. I just don't agree with you that talking about "grace" the way you do, makes any sense. It obviously makes sense to you .. I must be missing something.

Can you describe this attribute in more detail. What do you mean by grace?
You have already told me that you were insulted by me pointing out the dictionary definition.
What definition are you using?
 
muhammad_isa said:
We agree .. it is correct :)

I'm not ignoring you, btw .. I just don't agree with you that talking about "grace" the way you do, makes any sense. It obviously makes sense to you .. I must be missing something.

Can you describe this attribute in more detail. What do you mean by grace?
You have already told me that you were insulted by me pointing out the dictionary definition.
What definition are you using?
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Sorry, for now our dialogue is at an end.

Why? I have expounded/explained in great detail what my understanding of Grace is. Both on this thread and on another titled Grace". You constantly ask questions and assert things which are countered by my replies.....and you totally ignore them, looking only for the next peg to hang your opinion on. I can be no clearer. Sorry.
 
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