What is the Baha'i message in simple words?

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Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
What one needs to do is not quote from anti Baha'i websites, as they are the only place I have ever seen those quotes.

Maybe show a link to the reference, a link to those books?

Also translation is a tricky business, when translating for Persian or Arabic into English.

Regards Tony
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Are you denying that this is what is said in those texts? Do you have a different translation saying otherwise?
 
Cino said:
Huh? I thought this was Interfaith Dialogue?!

I am not here to shop for a religion to adopt, but to talk about what makes religions similar, different, and why people are into theirs. I also like to read what people don't like about religions, theirs or others', but that is much harder to pull of successfully. Speaking from experience here.

Anyway. Erm. What was I going to say...
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I agree with this. It's an Interfaith forum. We shouldn't be here to proselytize.
 
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Ahanu said:
Not sure about the translation, but let's assume it is precise for the sake of argument. Note Abdu'l-Baha's positive statements about African Americans:

". . . verily the faces of these are as the pupil of the eye; although the pupil is created black, yet it is the source of light. I hope God will make these black ones the glory of the white ones and as the depositing of the lights of love of God. And I ask God to assist them in all circumstances, that they may be encompassed with the favors of their Loving Lord throughout centuries and ages."
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Let's take his statements about Arabs out of context:

"These Arab tribes were most barbarous and rapacious . . ."

". . . iniquitous Arabs of the desert who were like ravening wolves and beasts."
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Dude! Did you just read what Abdu'l-Baha said about Arabs?! He is soooo racist! But let's read it in context:

"These Arab tribes were most barbarous and rapacious and in comparison with them the wild and fierce natives of America were the Platos of the age, for they did not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, claiming this to be an act of honour and taking pride therein. Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, “If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you.” Even to the present day the Arabs dread having daughters."

". . . . and so it is that they [Muhammad and Ali] reformed and educated the wicked, bloodthirsty, and iniquitous Arabs of the desert who were like ravening wolves and beasts."
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His whole point in context is to show how Arabs behaved before and after the appearance of Muhammad. It's essentially about how education can transform society:


"In short, multitudes of Eastern peoples were reared for thirteen centuries under the shadow of the Muḥammadan Faith. During the Middle Ages, while Europe had sunk to the lowest depths of barbarity, the Arabs excelled all other nations of the earth in sciences and crafts, mathematics, civilization, governance, and other arts. The Educator and Prime Mover of the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, and the Founder of the civilization of human perfections among those contending clans, was an illiterate Man, Muḥammad. Was this illustrious Man a universal Educator or not? Let us be fair."


"Consider likewise the animals: If an animal is trained, it becomes domesticated, whereas man, if he is left without education, becomes like an animal. Indeed, if man is abandoned to the rule of nature, he sinks even lower than the animal, whereas if he is educated he becomes even as an angel. For most animals do not devour their own kind, but men in the Sudan, in the middle of Africa, rend and eat each other."
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Essentially, the Middle East when it wages war on another culture or religion, destroys it both objectively and subjectively. I've studied pre-Islamic Arabia for years and although far from perfect, the 'pseudo'Jahiliyya were nothing like they are portrayed in Islamic text. The Abrahamic faiths are notorious for disseminating the previous Abrahamic faith and other cultural faiths.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Hypocrisy:
The Oneness of Humanity
The inhabitants of a land like Africa are like wild savages and land-dwelling animals that lack common-sense and knowledge and are all wild. There is not a single wise and civilized person among them.
- Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib (Egypt), vol. 1, p. 331.
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By the way, if you would like to know what Abdu'l-Baha is talking about here in context, you should read this. The idea Abdu'l-Baha is being racist - which is what your source wants to argue - is nonsense. Let me know what you think. It is so obviously wrong that one must seriously consider if we should even seriously consider the rest of your source. lol
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Essentially, the Middle East when it wages war on another culture or religion, destroys it both objectively and subjectively. I've studied pre-Islamic Arabia for years and although far from perfect, the 'pseudo'Jahiliyya were nothing like they are portrayed in Islamic text. The Abrahamic faiths are notorious for disseminating the previous Abrahamic faith and other cultural faiths.
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Any short documents about that? Thanks.
 
Cino said:
Huh? I thought this was Interfaith Dialogue?!

I am not here to shop for a religion to adopt, but to talk about what makes religions similar, different, and why people are into theirs. I also like to read what people don't like about religions, theirs or others', but that is much harder to pull of successfully. Speaking from experience here.

Anyway. Erm. What was I going to say...
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Good @Cino

However dialogue involves just that. Dialogue. A political party that fudges and dodges questions and keeps giving me slogans has lost my vote. There is a genuine attempt to try to learn and give space to question and answer in this thread, that is mostly not reciprocated with honesty and openess, imo

So ...

I'm personally not interested in more evasion. Everybody reads all this. People decide for themselves
 
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RJM said:
Good @Cino

However dialogue involves just that. Dialogue. A political party that fudges and dodges questions and keeps giving me slogans has lost my vote. There is a genuine attempt to try to learn and give space to question and answer in this thread, that is mostly not reciprocated with honesty and openess, imo

So ...

I'm personally not interesred in more evasion. Everybody reads all this. People decide for themselves
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Not sure what questions I have evaded from you. Maybe you can be specific.
 
Ahanu said:
By the way, if you would like to know what Abdu'l-Baha is talking about here in context, you should read this. The idea Abdu'l-Baha is being racist - which is what your source wants to argue - is nonsense. Let me know what you think. It is so obviously wrong that one must seriously consider if we should even seriously consider the rest of your source. lol
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This?

The inhabitants of a country like Africa are all as wandering savages and wild animals; they lack intelligence and knowledge; all are uncivilized; On the contrary, consider the civilized countries, the inhabitants of which are living in the highest state of culture and ethics, solidarity and inter-dependence; possessing, with few exceptions, acute power of comprehensions and sound mind.
Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha, 576

This quote is from the beginning of a letter from Abdu’l-Baha about the importance of education, for boys and girls, and the limits of education. You can read the whole letter, in the old translation in Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha Abbas volume 3 (1916) here.

The Persian text is available in a collection of Abdu’l-Baha’s letters called Min mukaatiib Haziratu’l-‘Abdu’l-Baha vol. 1, section 110. (Also in the compilations Payam-e Malakut and in Amr wa Khalq.) I have done a new translation of the beginning of the letter. My translation doesn’t differ much from the old one, but what a difference it makes to read the context of the words that are twisted by selective misquotation in the Bahai Combat Kit!

O ye beloved of God and maid-servants of the Merciful!
Many intellectuals believe that the diversity of intellect and insight is due to differences in education and socialisation. That is, that minds are initially at the same level, but education and socialisation cause intellectual capacities to differ and lead to the distinction between people’s understandings, and that these differences are not innate, but due to education and socialisation: that no soul has any inherent distinction. Therefore, all members of the human race have the capacity to achieve the most exalted station.

To prove this they say:
“The inhabitants of one region, such as Africa, are all like voracious beasts or wild animals; without understanding or knowledge, all uncivilized; not one civilized and wise man exists among them. This they contrast to civilized countries: all the inhabitants living in the highest state of culture and ethics, in cooperation and solidarity, and with few exceptions, with acute understanding and sound reasoning. Therefore, it is made clear and established that the superiority and inferiority of minds and comprehensions arises from education and teaching, or the lack of them. A bent branch is straightened by training and the wild fruit of the jungle is made the fruit of the orchard. An ignorant man becomes knowledgeable through teaching, and through the bounty of a wise educator, the uncultivated region becomes a civilized kingdom. The sick may be healed by the physician’s art, and the poor man, by learning the arts of commerce, can achieve independence. The follower, by attaining the virtues of the leader, becomes great, and an abject man, through the education of a teacher, rises from the depths of abasement to the heights of glory.”
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Isn't this just an apologetic translation of the actual Persian words? I don't read Persian so I can't really debate what was actually said.
There is so much more to a culture/people than their perceived education, and exactly what is their education (or lack of) being compared to, a culture outside of Africa? That still sounds like an unfair statement and one that attempts superiority over another.
A truly sympathetic belief system embraces all belief systems and finds in them kernels of truth and beauty. One only need look at some of the Sufi sects to see how they embrace the positive of everything. Which of course got them in trouble with orthodox Islam because this universality of spiritualness the Sufi sees is a heretic (Mulhid) to the Islamic eye.
 
RJM said:
Let's try again:

List ...
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Miraculous healing doesn't seem to be something rationally accepted, I know I find it utter hogwash. If we are going to base religious heroes on their fictional mythos, then we might as well design a comic book religion.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:

Isn't this just an apologetic translation of the actual Persian words? I don't read Persian so I can't really debate what was actually said.
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No. The writer said his translation isn't much different from the one posted online here, and it is not.

"The republic of wise men believes that the difference in minds and opinions is due to the difference of education and the acquisition of ethics. That is, that minds are equal in origin, but education and the acquisition of ethics cause minds to differ and comprehensions to be at variance; that this difference is not in entity but in education and teaching; that there is no individual distinction for any soul. Hence, the members of the human race all possess the capacity of attaining to the highest station, and the proof they adduce therefor is this: “The inhabitants of a country like Africa are all as wandering savages and wild animals; they lack intelligence and knowledge; all are uncivilized; not one civilized and wise man is to be found among them. On the contrary, consider the civilized countries, the inhabitants of which are living in the highest state of culture and ethics, solidarity and inter-dependence; possessing, with few exceptions, acute power of comprehensions and sound mind. Therefore, it is made clear and evident that the superiority and inferiority of minds and comprehensions arises from education and cultivation, or from their lack and absence. A bent branch is straightened by training and the wild fruit of the jungle is made the product of the orchard. An ignorant man by learning becomes knowing, and the world of savagery, through the bounty of a wise educator, is changed into a civilized kingdom. The sick is healed by medication, and the poor man, by learning the arts of commerce, is made rich. The follower, by attaining the virtues of the leader, becomes great, and the lowly man, by the education of the teacher, rises from the nadir of oblivion to the zenith of celebrity.” These are the proofs of the wise men."
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Your source lifted it out of context. It is not an issue of translation.
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
Miraculous healing doesn't seem to be something rationally accepted, I know I find it utter hogwash. If we are going to base religious heroes on their fictional mythos, then we might as well design a comic book religion.
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The Baha'u'llah is the second coming of the Christ. The Christ forgave sin and healed the sick who came to him, according to the gospels ...
 
RJM said:
The Baha'u'llah is the second coming of the Christ. The Christ forgave sin and healed the sick who came to him, according to the gospels ...
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If you say so . . . however, you do know what Circular Reasoning is, right?
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
If you say so . . . however, you do know what Circular Reasoning is, right?
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Not the issue here.

The Baha'i argue from the basis of the gospel Jesus the Christ, to Baha'u'llah the Christ. We're told in this thread apparently Baha'u'llah healed the sick who came to him, in the same way the gospel Jesus did. So I'm asking for a list of those healings, like those listed in the gospels ...

Logging off now
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Why would that be? Did they have some secret doctrines that Yeshua penned himself, that the rest of the world doesn't know about?
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They had a Message God gave them to deliver. So I guess, that it is up to us to decide why we should or should not look at them.

Regards Tony
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Are you denying that this is what is said in those texts? Do you have a different translation saying otherwise?
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I know Abdul'baha is very loving, honest, kind, compassionate and extremley wise.

So anything posted to cloud those facts, is most likely misquoted, quoted out of context, or incorrectly translated with an agenda in mind, and not offered in the light, or with the intent Abdul'baha was offering.

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
Let's try again:

List ...
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There will be no list from me. Miracles are not proof of a Messenger. I have enough flaws in sharing this Message, the least I can do is not break this advice.

Also if I posted some of the recorded events, what would that achieve?

I do not wish to mention the miracles of Bahá’u’lláh, for it may perhaps be said that these are traditions, liable both to truth and to error, like the accounts of the miracles of Christ in the Gospel, which come to us from the apostles, and not from anyone else, and are denied by the Jews . . . Yes, miracles are proofs for the eyewitness only, and even he may regard them not as a miracle but as an enchantment. Extraordinary feats have also been related of some conjurors. Briefly, my meaning is that many wonderful things were done by Bahá’u’lláh, but we do not recount them, as they do not constitute proofs and evidences for all the peoples of the earth, and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them: they may think that they are merely enchantments. Also, most of the miracles of the Prophets which are mentioned have an inner significance . . . Our purpose is not to deny such miracles; our only meaning is that they do not constitute decisive proofs, and that they have an inner significance.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 37

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
They had a Message God gave them to deliver. So I guess, that it is up to us to decide why we should or should not look at them.

Regards Tony
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Did you mean . . . "They had a Message God "ALLEGEDLY" gave them to deliver. So I guess, that it is up to us to decide why we should or should not look at them."
 
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