'Amir Alzzalam
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There are certain things I like to have proof of and not take someone's word for.
What is the Baha'i message in simple words?
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
They are the nourishers of the idea of Gods. That they warn of false prophets is like a shop saying that it has no other branch in the city (to deter copy cats, though they may themselves be one). Quite common in India.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The actual proof is within us all. That is why Faith is mostly a journey of self discovery.
One such passage.
"O Son of Spirit! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Baha'u'llah Hidden Words.
Regards Tony
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Who is saying this Bahaollah or your Allah? If it is Allah, then does he not have eyes to see the poverty in the world? And he created people 'noble' and the jails are full of these 'noble' people? What essence of knowledge did Allah give? Even Allah does not know biology (molded you out of clay!), what to talk of Bahaollah?
And if Bahaollah said this, then it speaks for his monumental ego.
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Ahanu
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A monumental ego wouldn't turn down a government position, but that's the path Baha'u'llah turned down. Would @Aupmanyav have done the same?
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
That is what the story is. Is there some evidence about it? Furthermore, Bahaollah was not being given a position of a Vazier. The most that he could have got is a regional position. 'Imamat' was more satisfying to ego and carried better prospects.
Yes. If the government that gives me a position has goals which differ from mine, then I would not take that position. Of course, I would not have refused Narendra Modi if he wanted to give me a position in his government but I am over-age. Modi's principle is that a person should give chance to younger people when he/she is 75. I think Modi will resign in 2025.
badger
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I don't imagine that Bahaulah's Dad trusted his son that much; he had got in with the wrong crowd and I reckon that being thrown in to prison with other offenders and to watch them being selected for execution each day may have been a kind of shock treatment for him...he certainly wasn't in danger of being executed himself.
Without his Dad's power and influence he would have been toast, imo.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
It is the politics of the day which saved him, the British, the Russians, the Ottomans, perhaps not his father's position. Iran Shah sent him off.
badger
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Wasn't his Dad well in with the Russian Ambassador and others? One thing I feel sure about.... if he had been a working peasant (like Jesus?) then we would never have ever heard about him.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Yeah, the enemies of Iran took up his case (they wanted him to create problems in Iran), and that is why Shah was happy to see him go.
Ahanu
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Jesus was related to John the Baptist in some way. John's father was a priest in the temple. There were priestly connections with those two. Everyday peasants they most certainly were not.
His father died in 1839 (which was before the Bab's announcement), so he would have been unable to watch his son - a follower of the Bab - "being thrown into prison," @badger. Regardless of Baha'u'llah's high-ranking connections, he was still subjected to torture and imprisonment. Compare Baha'u'llah's lifestyle and treatment with, say, today's Rich Kids of Tehran.
Baha'u'llah's father had the title of vizier for one of the sons of Fath-Ali Shah Qajar. His father was stripped of his title by the Grand Vizier, who, according to sources, still showed favor to Baha'u'llah after this heinous act. It was the Grand Vizier that offered Baha'u'llah the position that he eventually turned down. By evidence, I guess you mean a written document from the Grand Vizier to Baha'u'llah? I am unaware of any. Still, that's not proof the offer never happened. Looking at the evidence as a whole, Baha'u'llah's movements in his timeline, and what Baha'i sources say, it is likely.
It's not a question of whether or not he was offered this or that title in government, it is a question of a life of luxury versus a life without luxury. A fat ego loves luxury and seeks a path of ease rather than hardship. Why turn down a life of luxury and opt for heavy chains and imprisonment in the Black Pit if he was led by a fat ego as @Aupmanyav would have us believe? It would be better for @Aupmayav to question Baha'u'llah's sanity instead.
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Ahanu
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You make good points, @Ahanu.
On general principles, and definitely not to say anything about Baha'u'llah, I disagree with the following:
I have known a couple of people whose fat egos thrived on showing the world the austetities and hardships they had to endure.
Again, not saying this about Baha'u'llah, but saying that fat egos can and do work in unexpected ways.
On general principles, and definitely not to say anything about Baha'u'llah, I disagree with the following:
I have known a couple of people whose fat egos thrived on showing the world the austetities and hardships they had to endure.
Again, not saying this about Baha'u'llah, but saying that fat egos can and do work in unexpected ways.
Ahanu
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Do you know people born into wealth that do that?
I don't personally know people born into wealth, I'm afraid.
Ahanu
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My theory: fat egos with wealth work differently than fat egos without wealth.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Being a vazier (or teacher) to one son of Fath Ali Shah Qazar was not a big position and that too was taken away from him. Shah had 57 sons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fath-Ali_Shah_Qajar#Marriage_and_children). If Bahaollah was offered such a position (though as you say, you do not know about any evidence for that. It may be another Bahai story), may be Bahaollah was not sure of his capabilities. He too was only home-schooled. That may be the reason why he refused it.
Bahaollah lived relatively luxuriously after 1877 (when he was allowed to leave the Accra baracks) in large sea-side houses (Shall I provide the photographs?) and so did his progeny. His followers funded him well.
No, I do not doubt Bahaollah's sanity. I believe that he was a very smart person who could influence so many Iranians of his claim just by his talk without any evidence. That is why I rank him with Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
You know that was just for four months. IMHO, that was a small price to pay for 'Imamat'.
My own salvation and that of the whole human race depend upon me signing on the dotted line to honour and show unquestioned fealty to the pronouncements of Baha'u'llah who declares himself to be the return of Jesus Christ?
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