Religion as Self Fulfilling Prophecy

If mind senses what God reveals, then in my book (my way of seeing) God is at least in THAT mind.
I would suggest the mind is making sense of an experience, the becoming conscious of the immanent presence of the Divine – but that immanent presence is not limited to the mind.

In fact, I'd say the mind is 'after the event', even if the mind thinks (as they tend to do) that they've registered something before anything else in the corporeal faculty – that's a demonstrable fact of how the mind works in everyday life. The mind contextualises according to what it knows. In that sense the mind is as much an impediment as a translator or facilitator.

The mind has some characteristic that allows for the revelation.
I would rather say that 'being' is the medium of revelation.

You should read Denys Turner's The Darkness of God
"In the medieval mystical tradition, the Christian soul meets God in a 'cloud of unknowing', a divine darkness of ignorance. This meeting with God is beyond all knowing and beyond all experiencing."

"Turner argues that the contemporary relevance of medieval mysticism lies precisely in its rejection of 'mystical experience'" – that's is the mind's version of it – "and locates the mystical firmly within the grasp of the ordinary and the everyday."

I think the Buddhist maxim "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water" sums it up nicely.

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Descartes said, "Cogito, ergo sum" – "I think, therefore I am"
Descartes was wrong. It is, in fact, "Sum, cogito ergo" – "I am, therefore I think"

Bioscience now reveals that all living cells have cognitive systems that allow them to sense and respond to their environment. This 'cellular cognition' means they can learn and remember, and even at the cellular level, cognitive complexity demonstrates sophisticated regulatory networks and communication capabilities. All this speaks of, at the cellular level, intentionality – that where there is life, even at the most rudimentary organic level, there is mind.

It seems to me that even at the granular, cellular level, there is co-operation. They participate and bring about their own alterations and re-organisations, because they are unified at a far profounder level yet. The meanest cell is capable of becoming something structurally new through dynamic engagement in the external world.

If we attribute a cognitive level of being to such simple structures, not only are they capable of adaption, but have a sense of resistance to ensure their own inherent, internal unity. Thus organisms react, adapt, interact, self-regulate and even innovate – and it's no stretch to suggest these organisms experience and learn, reason and understand. (If I were to wax lyrical I would also suggest they demonstrate a sense of both freedom and sacrifice.)

But what they do evidence is a sense of subjectivity, that is personal unity and identity.

That CHARACTERISTIC is in mind.
No, that CHARACTERISTIC is in being.

I'd say that 'mind', as you speak of it, it one aspect of an holistic 'body-and-mind' sensorium.

The brain then, is a kind of clearing house. What we call mind or consciousness is just the bit of its activity we're aware off.

I'd say being is so much more than mind.

And if it is a doorway for God, unless God is a relative recluse and doesn’t visit many minds, then God, as is in any way knowable, is IN minds.
For the reasons stated above, supported by science and theology, I disagree – I'd say the mind, unaided, is the least way of knowing.

You admit as much yourself in the title of this thread.

St Thomas argued the "Quinque Viae" – The Five Ways to Prove the Existence of God – this is how the mind works.

But philosophers today still argue those proofs back and forth – because it's all in the mind – and St Thomas was not arguing the proof of the Abrahamic God, that God was beyond any such rational and logical argument, and is not a philosophical category.

The way to that God was through phaith, not philosophy (if you'll excuse that dreadful pun) – it's the dark way of unknowing.
 
Your post really got me thinking about how we connect with God in ways that go beyond just our thoughts. I love how you brought up Dionysius and Eckhart—those ideas about silencing the mind to make room for something deeper hit home. The way you tied in the Martha and Mary story, and Peter and John at the tomb, paints such a clear picture of how our hearts and wills are part of this journey, not just our heads.

That bit about Jimmy Carr and losing his voice after Sean’s passing? Wow, it’s such a real example of how our bodies can carry what our words can’t. It reminds me of times when I’ve felt something so big—grief, joy, or even God’s presence—that it wasn’t just in my mind but in my whole being. Your point about Ezekiel and Saul makes me think of how God often meets us in those raw, physical moments to show us He’s there.

I also appreciate how you highlight that meeting God isn’t just mental gymnastics. It’s like the spiritual path asks us to bring our whole selves—body, soul, and all. It’s comforting to know that even when our minds can’t grasp it, God’s still working in us. Thanks for sharing such a thoughtful post—it’s given me a lot to chew on! Looking forward to hearing more of your insights.
I continue to be plagued by a semantics issue when it comes to my use of the word “mind.” I blame it on psychology that I studied. Psychology does not limit “mind” to conscious mental activities. Perception, including emotional experiences (the “heart”) and all kinds of physical regulation processes and physical experiences are all considered part of what brains and minds do. In fact a whole lot of psychology has studied and theorized about subconscious mental activity. The God you feel the presence of is certainly in the category of the relatively Unknown. Psychologically speaking, the conscious mind uses subconscious (or trans conscious?) to assist conscious mind with new insights, creative solutions, etc.
Those of you who prefer to call such non conscious mental processes something other than “mind” may wonder why someone like me chooses not to.
I’ll do my best to say why. Clients often get in touch with subconscious emotions and conflicts by carefully learning to open up to exploring dreams or daydreams, projections, or even inner feelings . The psychologist sees the process of going deeper. Into what? The assumption is that it goes deeper into another aspect of mind itself, and that the conscious mind becomes increasingly aware of mind as a whole. The depth work does not call for external agents such as angels to get the job done, although it cannot rule out (nor does it need to) assistance from angels or other Divine Beings. But growth and healing is much less likely to occur if we just sit around hoping that something external will do the wholeness, deepening, healing work for us. The conscious mind has to go deeper and wider to explore and discover. It is not a mere spectator sport. It involves intentionality, proactive initiative, if only learning to “ask” by relaxing and floating to the core of overall consciousness, overall mind. As a psychology service provider, I wanted to EMPOWER my clients to use the previously unknown in order to heal and grow. Ideas that suggest an “external locus of control “ tend to disempower, and allow fatalism and authoritarianism to slip in, both of which religions have been guilty of enabling at times.
When Christ said “I and the Father are one,” I take that to be an expression of the human MENTAL capacity to connect with the unknown in worthwhile ways. The (overall) mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
I continue to be plagued by a semantics issue when it comes to my use of the word “mind.” I blame it on psychology that I studied. Psychology does not limit “mind” to conscious mental activities. Perception, including emotional experiences (the “heart”) and all kinds of physical regulation processes and physical experiences are all considered part of what brains and minds do. In fact a whole lot of psychology has studied and theorized about subconscious mental activity. The God you feel the presence of is certainly in the category of the relatively Unknown. Psychologically speaking, the conscious mind uses subconscious (or trans conscious?) to assist conscious mind with new insights, creative solutions, etc.
Those of you who prefer to call such non conscious mental processes something other than “mind” may wonder why someone like me chooses not to.
I’ll do my best to say why. Clients often get in touch with subconscious emotions and conflicts by carefully learning to open up to exploring dreams or daydreams, projections, or even inner feelings . The psychologist sees the process of going deeper. Into what? The assumption is that it goes deeper into another aspect of mind itself, and that the conscious mind becomes increasingly aware of mind as a whole. The depth work does not call for external agents such as angels to get the job done, although it cannot rule out (nor does it need to) assistance from angels or other Divine Beings. But growth and healing is much less likely to occur if we just sit around hoping that something external will do the wholeness, deepening, healing work for us. The conscious mind has to go deeper and wider to explore and discover. It is not a mere spectator sport. It involves intentionality, proactive initiative, if only learning to “ask” by relaxing and floating to the core of overall consciousness, overall mind. As a psychology service provider, I wanted to EMPOWER my clients to use the previously unknown in order to heal and grow. Ideas that suggest an “external locus of control “ tend to disempower, and allow fatalism and authoritarianism to slip in, both of which religions have been guilty of enabling at times.
When Christ said “I and the Father are one,” I take that to be an expression of the human MENTAL capacity to connect with the unknown in worthwhile ways. The (overall) mind is a terrible thing to waste.
And what a divided world we create when we sit around and wait for saviors. What a waste to not use the very tool God gave us to unlock potential for growth and healing. The external locus of control has not served us all that well. If God is good, and power is secondary to that goodness, then why are we so afraid to realize, like Christ realized, that each of us and the Father are one?
 
And what a divided world we create when we sit around and wait for saviors. What a waste to not use the very tool God gave us to unlock potential for growth and healing. The external locus of control has not served us all that well. If God is good, and power is secondary to that goodness, then why are we so afraid to realize, like Christ realized, that each of us and the Father are one?
I see the issue we face is that it is the Messengers that enable the change within us. It is them that we can see within our own selves.

It is our neglect of finding them within, that moves us further away from what God's will is for humanity.

Until they are found and embraced, the healing remedies that God always gives us via the "Annointed One", can never be fully practiced. We need their guidance to unlock our potential.

Regards Tony
 
Where is the confusion? I read the books (including Bible and Qur'an), applied my mind, and became an atheist.
Read Bible, apply your mind, perhaps the same thing will happen to you too.
What do you mean specifically "apply your mind" Do you just mean analysis and critical thinking? Lots of people of lots of theological persuasions do that. They don't all become atheists necessarily.

Since I am not devoted to the theology or practice of any particular religion I do not have those particular illusions to shed, if that is what you mean But also many people who become more knowledgeable don't necessarily "shed illusions" in the sense of not believing their religion or losing belief in G-d as such. They may come to look at things differently.

I'm also not sure about your previous statement "If you use your mind G-d never reveals himself to you" - You share your experience which is useful to know, but whether it can be generalized I am not certain.

If I understand correctly, if people are looking for G-d to reveal himself, they would apply their mind in some fashion, using meditation to achieve a different state of mind allowing themselves to be more in touch with G-d or something that allows the to understand G-d.

So... There's my confusion. Or maybe confusion is not quite the right word. I'm trying to make sense of two theories. One based in what I said in the last paragraph, and one based in what you said about applying your mind. Are both views accurate, but refer to different states of mind? Are both views wrong? I'm very curious about G-d and any supernatural insights anybody may have, but also, very curious about how people think, what their thought content and thought process is. I mean, about everything really, but for our purposes here, about their beliefs and how they process what they have learned.
 
Descartes said, "Cogito, ergo sum" – "I think, therefore I am"
Descartes was wrong. It is, in fact, "Sum, cogito ergo" – "I am, therefore I think"
I think both are valid depending on where you're coming from.
In fundamental terms you have to BE before you can THINK.
But BECAUSE of that, being able to THINK confirms that you ARE.
Which is what I think Descartes was doing - he was able to confirm his own existence by acknowledging his thinking.
 
What do you mean specifically "apply your mind" Do you just mean analysis and critical thinking? Lots of people of lots of theological persuasions do that. They don't all become atheists necessarily.
Very difficult to get out of childhood indoctrination, tribal pride and prejudices. It took me half my life to do that.
 
Very difficult to get out of childhood indoctrination, tribal pride and prejudices. It took me half my life to do that.
It depends on the indoctrination I suppose - how direct or how subtle.
I wasn't really raised religious, not as such.
I don't know how I would be if I had been raised with an explicit indoctrination into a single faith or ethnic identity.
I'm inclined to think the mixed messages I received about religion growing up were the most accurate indoctrination I could have gotten.
 
I continue to be plagued by a semantics issue when it comes to my use of the word “mind.”
LOL, I know.

I blame it on psychology that I studied.
Sometimes we have to undo what we do ...

Psychology does not limit “mind” to conscious mental activities.
Nor do I, just to be clear.

Perception, including emotional experiences ... has studied and theorized about subconscious mental activity.
Quite. And continually breaking new ground – as in the re-evaluation of panpsychism:
"Panpsychism is the view that mentality is fundamental and ubiquitous in the natural world. The view has a long and venerable history in philosophical traditions of both East and West, and has recently enjoyed a revival in analytic philosophy"
(Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Those of you who prefer to call such non conscious mental processes something other than “mind” may wonder why someone like me chooses not to.
I’ll do my best to say why ...
To be clear – I do not call 'non-conscious mental processes' something other than mind – as I have said – I regard mind as the entire human sensorium in all its activities – but nothing you've alluded to infers the presence of the Divine. Everything is within the realms of mental activity.

... But growth and healing is much less likely to occur if we just sit around hoping that something external will do the wholeness, deepening, healing work for us.
Nor have I suggested such – and nor, to be clear – is that what religions suggest.

Were your insights into religion as profound and as admirable as your insight into psychology, you might not have run into 'semantic' difficulties. The opinion expressed here however, in context of our debate, borders on the ad hominem.
 
I see the issue we face is that it is the Messengers that enable the change within us. It is them that we can see within our own selves.

It is our neglect of finding them within, that moves us further away from what God's will is for humanity.

Until they are found and embraced, the healing remedies that God always gives us via the "Annointed One", can never be fully practiced. We need their guidance to unlock our potential.

Regards Tony
Yes. I’m okay with the notion of a kind of other within, as long as we believe the mind can go there and use that information and energy. It seems to me, as I have said repeatedly in various dialogues here, that self and other make no sense deep within consciousness. I think there is a substrate of reality that we tap into like a computer using the “cloud.”
Furthermore, I agree that the mind has to still itself and loosen its grip and lower its resistance (become humble?) to do so, but it is mind that must choose to open the door. Even if Universal Mind is banging on the door, the mind must open to that deeper and more convergent/overlapping consciousness. What “prays” other than one’s own mind? What “asks?” In doing so, however, mind increases its potential significantly.
 
Yes. I’m okay with the notion of a kind of other within, as long as we believe the mind can go there and use that information and energy. It seems to me, as I have said repeatedly in various dialogues here, that self and other make no sense deep within consciousness. I think there is a substrate of reality that we tap into like a computer using the “cloud.”
Furthermore, I agree that the mind has to still itself and loosen its grip and lower its resistance (become humble?) to do so, but it is mind that must choose to open the door. Even if Universal Mind is banging on the door, the mind must open to that deeper and more convergent/overlapping consciousness. What “prays” other than one’s own mind? What “asks?” In doing so, however, mind increases its potential significantly.
I know we are guessing about metaphysics, but my best guess is that mind is a different dimension within the physical dimension, and as such is a portal to the “other side” that can be reached by going deep within directly, or indirectly by reclaiming a mental projection of the deeper dimension from within the physical existence of a human being. We call the projection “God” and “Messengers” and these projections are “reclaimed” by opening up to them. Once reclaimed we sense that it was always with us and in us all along, but we got distracted by, and preoccupied with, lesser reality on the surface, and so did not “have ears to hear” it or “eyes to see” it.
 
but nothing you've alluded to infers the presence of the Divine.
To me, accessibility and presence are functionally equivalent, and function is all we have to work with as physical beings who are of a different surface form than what lies deep within. The God function creates exotropy or neg-tropy in the midst of a reality prone to entropy.
 
Do I believe in God? Yes. Mainly because my praying to God works for me. Metaphysically? If it works, there must be something there, but knowing its exact nature is not necessary.
Even if “God” is really only a positive self-fulfilling prophecy that my mysterious mind fulfills religiously, that’s as real as it needs to be, as far as I’m concerned. Which would leave me metaphysically with Mind, perhaps a deeper action of mind that utilizes subconscious processing and may or may not tap into a quantum substrate of physical reality, and may or may not even tap into a yet deeper (super implicate—Bohm/Hiley) reality as well. But that aside, all that is necessary is that I can use my religious practice and “belief” to create positive self-fulfilling prophecies. Even if only now and then, it is worthwhile to me.
What we experience:

We are able to reach a state of openness of the mind to let our mind step back from our daily haste and leave a space for other thoughts.

We can direct our thoughts in the sense of what we know from the prophets and other wise persons.

Prayer is the combination of both: We pray to God and remember the teachings on His Will, and our thoughts are guided in goodness.

We come together with other people who share this experience and the mindset that results from it. We can't change the entire world, but we have an environment of people who share our ideas, a safe space and a place for common effort and mutual support.

Religion goes beyond our selves and our direct environment. It also forms the society to live in harmony with the world, God's creation, or, at least, it should do so.

We can partly recognise the impact of following the teachings applying a logic like "if I/we/all follow this, it will lead to..."

But what we do not know is how accurately the images and myths reflect the reality.

Knowing this, a believer who experienced the benefits of belief and understood the beneficial impact of the teachings is resistant to doubts about how accurately the images and myths reflect the reality. We can accept that creation was not as it is said in the scriptures, that maybe Jannah will be much different from the images, maybe not even come, or that God's Will is only the image of ultimate wisdom.

Tell this only to the believers. It's only helpful to those who have the experience. As Jesus (p.b.u.h) taught (not literally), "if you don't receive the Kingdom of God like a small child, who is able to accept phantasy for real and have confidence in God almighty like in the father who would save and guide and protect it, it will be hard to really enter into this, but even an old man may receive it if he starts from this confidence " (background quotes on request)
 
using meditation to achieve a different state of mind allowing themselves to be more in touch with G-d or something that allows the to understand G-d.
Yes, I like your use of the phrase “different state of mind.” I once had a dream of my spirit carrying my own decapitated head around. Some here seem to call the spirit different than the mind (as symbolized by the head in the dream?) but I like the notion that it is as you indicated a deeper/different state/aspect of mind. In other words, I interpret my “spirit” as deeper mind that is more in sync with Universal Mind. Furthermore, in deep I’m inclined to think individual mind and Universal mind are simply “Mind Itself.” I think my views align with some Buddhists’ belief that mind is mind, and not necessarily limited to an individual. If I’m even in the ball park of understanding, “mindfulness” relies on notion that a deeper state of mind can see mind, consciousness of consciousness, meta consciousness.
 
This thread reminded me of something I read recently about "non local consciousness" and though I couldn't find the same article, I found several on the topic of non local consciousness and am including a short one here:
 
What were some of the ideas you were taught as a child?
Same as in people with Abrahamic background, except that there are many Gods and Goddesses. You could call upon them in case of any problem, and that they liked people to be nice. And that was enough for a ticket to heaven and to escape hell. Worship whomever you want. Even if you worshiped one, it is not that others will not help if called upon.
 
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