Biblical meaning of "Christ"

Here's how some people understood Isaiah 53:5 before it started being translated by Christians:

"He shall build the house of the sanctuary, which has been profaned on account of our sins; it was delivered over on account of our iniquities, and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us, and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us."

 
Hi @Longfellow

Just a polite correction here – at one level the Targums are an Aramaic exegetical translation of the Hebrew Scriptures – in that sense not a word-for-word (as the Septuagint Greek tried to be with regard to its Hebrew source) translation.

Modern 'Christian translations' are from the Hebrew Masoretic text.

Hopefully @RabbiO will come in here, but I think I might be right in saying the Targums are not considered 'canonical' or equal to the Hebrew. A note somewhere say only Yemenite Jews use the Targum text in their liturgical practice.

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The Masoretic Text, as a complete Bible, dates from the 10th century CE. I think the complete Targum from the 7th.

That said, we have numerous sources – LXX, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., which scholars can test and so far no glaring error has been found with regard to either Jewish or Christian texts.

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The Christian interpretation of the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah as a prophecy of Jesus is, I think, better supported by the Targums than by the Masoretic – again @Rabbi0 might correct me – but an all-too-brief check suggests there is some back-and-forth as to whether the 'suffering servant' is a messianic figure, or whether the term encompasses Israel as a people.

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Scholars are sifting the Christian Scriptures for their Jewish reference sources, and the LXX and the Targums have been identified.

And, of course, I found a reference to the NT where Jesus challenges a Targum interpretation of Scriptures (rather than we might assume a 'Jewish literal' rather than a 'Christian spiritual' one) ... and now I've lost it!
 
Just a polite correction here – at one level the Targums are an Aramaic exegetical translation of the Hebrew Scriptures – in that sense not a word-for-word (as the Septuagint Greek tried to be with regard to its Hebrew source) translation.
Thank you.
Modern 'Christian translations' are from the Hebrew Masoretic text.
I've seen one exception to that, which I'll be discussing in another thread. If there's one, there might be others.
 
Just to say I do not hold all translations as valid – the NWT for one.
 
Just a polite correction here – at one level the Targums are an Aramaic exegetical translation of the Hebrew Scriptures – in that sense not a word-for-word (as the Septuagint Greek tried to be with regard to its Hebrew source) translation.
You might have missed my point. I didn't post that as a translation. I posted it as an early Jewish understanding of what Isaiah 53:5 is saying:

"He shall build the house of the sanctuary, which has been profaned on account of our sins; it was delivered over on account of our iniquities, and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us, and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us."
 
Modern 'Christian translations' are from the Hebrew Masoretic text.
The Masoretic Text, as a complete Bible, dates from the 10th century CE. I think the complete Targum from the 7th.
That said, we have numerous sources – LXX, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., which scholars can test and so far no glaring error has been found with regard to either Jewish or Christian texts.
Maybe so, but all sources agree that the Hebrew text says fellowship, association, band or group (havurato), and not stripes, wounds or bruises (habburato). Even in Strong's, where it classifies the word in Isaiah 53:5 with habburah words, there is no dagesh.
 
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You might have missed my point. I didn't post that as a translation. I posted it as an early Jewish understanding of what Isaiah 53:5 is saying:
OK, I picked up on 'before being translated by Christians', which is why I responded.

The Targums, the understanding you posted, is an Aramaic paraphrase translations of the Hebrew text. They reflect an interpretation of the Hebrew during the Rabbinic period (1st-7th centuries CE), and so, clearly, differ in places from the Hebrew text.

I think the 'before it started being translated by Christians' is misleading, as it seemed to imply the older Hebrew translation was by Christians – it's not. Both the original Hebrew and subsequent Aramaic to Greek was by Jews, the Targums evidencing a shift.

If I'm not mistaken, the Targums favour the idea of a suffering servant as an individual, potentially a messiah or messiah-like figure, whereas the older tradition saw the suffering servant as Israel.
 
OK, I picked up on 'before being translated by Christians', which is why I responded.

The Targums, the understanding you posted, is an Aramaic paraphrase translations of the Hebrew text. They reflect an interpretation of the Hebrew during the Rabbinic period (1st-7th centuries CE), and so, clearly, differ in places from the Hebrew text.

I think the 'before it started being translated by Christians' is misleading, as it seemed to imply the older Hebrew translation was by Christians – it's not. Both the original Hebrew and subsequent Aramaic to Greek was by Jews, the Targums evidencing a shift.

If I'm not mistaken, the Targums favour the idea of a suffering servant as an individual, potentially a messiah or messiah-like figure, whereas the older tradition saw the suffering servant as Israel.
Thank you. You're my best hope now for someone to talk to who might be able to have some sympathy for what I'm thinking and feeling, if I can find words for it, even if you don't agree at all.

I'm thinking that the gospel of Jesus is most of all about a kingdom, with Him as its ruler, the Son of God. He does talk about salvation, but now I'm thinking of that only as freedom from slavery to the sinful side of our nature, not as an end in itself but for us to enter into the kingdom. In my understanding, all of the verses that people use to prove that Jesus took the punishment for our sins are about something else. Sometimes it's about Him being a sacrifice to end all sacrifices, sometimes it's about Him carrying our sins away, sometimes it's about Him being a ransom that was paid to free us from the slavery to our sinful side that we were born into, but never a punishment that He took for us. He took the punishment off of us, but not by taking it on Himself.

Now that I wrote that, I'm not sure how relevant it is to my problem. My problem is that, like I said, I think that there's a lot of false teaching in Christian beliefs and evangelism that is like smoke and mirrors hiding from people what the gospel of Jesus is all about, and even repelling people away from learning anything about it. I keep wanting to argue against it, even though I don't actually think that will do anyone any good. Well, maybe it isn't that bad. I am interested in what people might think about what I'm thinking.

I've seen people using Isaiah 53:5 as a kind of trump card or last stand, when they see how easily the verses that supposedly prove penal substitution can be explained in other ways, so I decided to try to decipher the Hebrew. I don't have any training or experience for that, so I spent many hours trying to understand the ins and outs of the marks and prefixes and combining words together. It looked to me like Strong's was classifying a word wrong, but I wasn't sure because there's one dot that can be invisible sometimes. Now I am sure that there never was a dagesh in the bet, and no one is saying that there ever was, so the word in Hebrew is unquestionably something like "in His company" or "in His fellowship," and not "stripes," or "wounds."

I said "before it started being translated by Christians" because Christian translators were the first ones to translate the Hebrew word as "wounds" or "stripes" or something similar, before the Hebrew had vocalisation marks. There was no way to know if HBRTH was havurato (fellowship) or habburato (wounds) without hearing it spoken by Hebrew-speaking people. I'm thinking that maybe since the verse was about the suffering servant, they assumed that everything in it was about suffering, so it must be habburato.
 
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Thank you. You're my best hope now for someone to talk to who might be able to have some sympathy for what I'm thinking and feeling, if I can find words for it, even if you don't agree at all.
OK ... That's very good of you to say. Let's go for it...

I'm thinking that the gospel of Jesus is most of all about a kingdom, with Him as its ruler, the Son of God. He does talk about salvation, but now I'm thinking of that only as freedom from slavery to the sinful side of our nature, not as an end in itself but for us to enter into the kingdom.
Christ said:
"And he said to them, “You are from that which is below, I am from that which is above; you are from this cosmos, I am not from this cosmos. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for if you do not have faith that I AM, you will die in your sins." (John 8:23-24)

So He is from a higher cosmos, albeit one that encompasses this one. Through the Fall (however we choose to interpret that), we are subject to the "Archon of this cosmos" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, cf Ephesians 2:2), the Archon of Death. The Kingdom, as I understand it, is not under the power of death, hence he speaks of life (we might say 'eternal life', but that opens a can of words, as the translation from Greek to latin is questionable, and as I favour the Greek, I would say 'the life of the age', until the final judgement.)

"It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" Paul says (1 Corinthians 15:44), and declares, "that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God" (v50).

Quite what form this 'spiritual body' will take is an ongoing question, but in answer to your above, I'd say yes, the sinful in us cannot inherit the spiritual cosmos, and it would seem that the physical flesh and blood – sarx (flesh) as opposed to soma (body) – is connected to that lapsarian inheritance.

Leviticus 17:11 "כִּי נֶפֶשׁ הַבָּשָׂר בַּדָּם" – For the soul/life of the flesh is in the blood" (Gk: "ἡ γὰρ ψυχὴ πάσης σαρκὸς αἷμα αὐτοῦ")
There is room here to discuss whether the 'natural body' Paul opposes to the 'spiritual body' (anthropos psychikos v anthropos pneumatikos) is a flesh-and-blood body acquired after the Fall.

In my understanding, all of the verses that people use to prove that Jesus took the punishment for our sins are about something else. Sometimes it's about Him being a sacrifice to end all sacrifices, sometimes it's about Him carrying our sins away, sometimes it's about Him being a ransom that was paid to free us from the slavery to our sinful side that we were born into, but never a punishment that He took for us. He took the punishment off of us, but not by taking it on Himself.
Well that's one of those debates that goes on and vexes lexicographers and theologians.

As I think I've said, words like punishment and ransom are in the Bible, so we can't just dismiss them. But our resurrection is entirely dependent upon this sacrifice ... but quite how that works is a mystery, hence the various theories. I prefer the idea of recapitulation.

My problem is that, like I said, I think that there's a lot of false teaching in Christian beliefs and evangelism that is like smoke and mirrors hiding from people what the gospel of Jesus is all about, and even repelling people away from learning anything about it.
Well, everyone's got an opinion, and now the likes of YouTube and TikTok (I'm told) is full of people who are having their say.

Certainly there's ways and ways to talk about it.

I've seen people using Isaiah 53:5 as a kind of trump card or last stand, when they see how easily the verses that supposedly prove penal substitution can be explained in other ways, so I decided to try to decipher the Hebrew. I don't have any training or experience for that, so I spent many hours trying to understand the ins and outs of the marks and prefixes and combining words together. It looked to me like Strong's was classifying a word wrong, but I wasn't sure because there's one dot that can be invisible sometimes. Now I am sure that there never was a dagesh in the bet, and no one is saying that there ever was, so the word in Hebrew is unquestionably something like "in His company" or "in His fellowship," and not "stripes," or "wounds."
To be honest you'd need a Hebrew scholar to take you through that. I don't think Strong's is wrong, and then you have the Septuagint Greek, which uses the Greek word 'welt' for 'stripe', so that suggests Strong's is correct.

But yes, the root says something else, but I'd need someone explain to me how it got from the root to the phrase in Isaiah.

I said "before it started being translated by Christians" because Christian translators were the first ones to translate the Hebrew word as "wounds" or "stripes" or something similar, before the Hebrew had vocalisation marks.
But the Septuagint dates from around the 3rd century BCE?
 
OK ... That's very good of you to say. Let's go for it...


Christ said:
"And he said to them, “You are from that which is below, I am from that which is above; you are from this cosmos, I am not from this cosmos. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for if you do not have faith that I AM, you will die in your sins." (John 8:23-24)

So He is from a higher cosmos, albeit one that encompasses this one. Through the Fall (however we choose to interpret that), we are subject to the "Archon of this cosmos" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, cf Ephesians 2:2), the Archon of Death. The Kingdom, as I understand it, is not under the power of death, hence he speaks of life (we might say 'eternal life', but that opens a can of words, as the translation from Greek to latin is questionable, and as I favour the Greek, I would say 'the life of the age', until the final judgement.)

"It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" Paul says (1 Corinthians 15:44), and declares, "that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God" (v50).

Quite what form this 'spiritual body' will take is an ongoing question, but in answer to your above, I'd say yes, the sinful in us cannot inherit the spiritual cosmos, and it would seem that the physical flesh and blood – sarx (flesh) as opposed to soma (body) – is connected to that lapsarian inheritance.

Leviticus 17:11 "כִּי נֶפֶשׁ הַבָּשָׂר בַּדָּם" – For the soul/life of the flesh is in the blood" (Gk: "ἡ γὰρ ψυχὴ πάσης σαρκὸς αἷμα αὐτοῦ")
There is room here to discuss whether the 'natural body' Paul opposes to the 'spiritual body' (anthropos psychikos v anthropos pneumatikos) is a flesh-and-blood body acquired after the Fall.


Well that's one of those debates that goes on and vexes lexicographers and theologians.

As I think I've said, words like punishment and ransom are in the Bible, so we can't just dismiss them. But our resurrection is entirely dependent upon this sacrifice ... but quite how that works is a mystery, hence the various theories. I prefer the idea of recapitulation.


Well, everyone's got an opinion, and now the likes of YouTube and TikTok (I'm told) is full of people who are having their say.

Certainly there's ways and ways to talk about it.


To be honest you'd need a Hebrew scholar to take you through that. I don't think Strong's is wrong, and then you have the Septuagint Greek, which uses the Greek word 'welt' for 'stripe', so that suggests Strong's is correct.

But yes, the root says something else, but I'd need someone explain to me how it got from the root to the phrase in Isaiah.


But the Septuagint dates from around the 3rd century BCE?
Thanks. :)

I'm sorry for my outbursts in other posts.
 
The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary defines Christ not as a specific person, but as a universal divine principle or idea. Here are the key points:
* Divine Idea/Principle: Christ represents the "perfect Word" or "idea of God" that unfolds into the true, perfect man. It's the embodiment of all divine ideas like intelligence, life, love, substance, and strength.
* Indwelling Christ: Each individual has this "Christ idea" within them. It's the true, spiritual, higher self, and the "kingdom of God" within each person.
* Jesus as the Embodiment: Jesus of Nazareth is seen as the individual who fully demonstrated this Christ principle in his life, becoming the "type man" or a living example of what man can achieve through aligning with this divine idea.
* Birth of Christ: This refers to the dawning of higher consciousness and spiritual faculties within an individual, leading to salvation from ignorance, sickness, and death.
* Second Coming of Christ: This is interpreted as the awakening and regeneration of the subconscious mind through the "Christ Mind" or superconscious.

In the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, Peter primarily symbolizes the spiritual faculty of faith.
Here's a breakdown of what it says:
* Name Meaning: Peter (from the Greek "petra" or Aramaic "Cephas") means "rock," "stone," or "cliff." His original name, Simon, signifies "hearing" or "receptivity to Truth." Jesus changing his name to Peter signifies the transformation of hearing into a firm, unwavering faith.
* Foundation of Spiritual Consciousness: This strong, enduring faith in God is considered a necessary foundation for building up spiritual consciousness, often referred to as the "church of Christ" within the individual.
* Early Faculty: Faith (Peter) is described as one of the first spiritual faculties called into expression by anyone seeking to follow Jesus in an overcoming life.
* Stages of Development: Peter often represents faith in its various stages of development. His initial impulsiveness and wavering actions (like denying Jesus) typify a state of unsteadiness that fluctuates between spiritual and material, yet with an underlying desire for Spirit that ultimately leads to light.
* Steadfastness through Love: The repeated affirmations of love by Peter (John 21:15-17) are interpreted as signifying that steadfastness of faith is developed through love. His wavering faith was often attributed to not being fully established in love.
* Impulsive Enthusiasm: Peter is also seen as the "impetuous, fiery enthusiasm of the soul," which needs balance and direction, much like the role of Andrew (integrity) in this metaphysical context.
* Training and Direction: The text emphasizes the need to teach Peter (faith) to concentrate and center on true words, guiding this faculty to "feed your sheep" (other faculties) and keep it on task.
 
The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary defines Christ not as a specific person, but as a universal divine principle or idea.

OK ... and that's OK ... and I accept it as your position.

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Why I cannot accept it.

Hart, a classicist, knows Graeco-Roman late antiquity extremely well. His reputation is without question. He writes:
"I simply cannot place the teachings of Christ as they are credibly recounted in the gospels within the normal continuum of the religious and moral expectations of their age."

Speaking of the discourse between Jesus and Pilate at Jesus' arrest: "I cannot say with sufficient emphasis how absurd it should have seemed in the context of that age to see this condemned slave and rustic subject of empire as the very presence of God in this scene."

In short – Christianity survived not because of an idea or a principle, but because of a man. You can't take the man out any more than you can read the 'historical' man back in.

Christianity survived because a man lived, dies, and rose from the dead.

Scholars now accept the existence of a man, commonly known as Jesus, an apocalyptic prophet, healer and wonder-worker, who was arrested and executed by crucifixion by the Roman authorities, and that, really, should have been the end of it. It's the only logical reason how and why a body of believers appears on the scene with such a radical message.

And what is the core of that message: The Jesus was crucified, and on the third day rose again.

To be Christian is to believe in His resurrection.

Without that, Christianity would not have survived. It would have vanished along with the other prophets and wonder workers of the age. And the teachings? Without that, what do we have? The exhortations to justice and mercy, the care of the poor and oppressed, the warning of Divine Retribution. But all that is there in the great prophetic writings of Israel. And pagan culture had its own schools of compassion and universal brother- and sisterhood. We have the Golden Rule.

Without the Resurrection, the writings would not have survived, because quite simply they lack the merit to be worth copying. They're nowhere nearly as literate and sophisticated as the similar heroic narratives of their contemporaries – and look at how few of those survived, and how few fans and followers they have garnered across history.

The datum of faith for the early Christian followers was the Resurrection and the witness of Christ – without that, Christianity would not have survived its early, tempestuous centuries. Something they believed in, and thought worth dying for.

Paul is the first voice we hear – he speaks of his own experience as the last, or at least the most recent, of those experiences:
" … and that he was entombed, and that he was raised on the third day in accord with the scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve; thereafter he was seen by over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain till now, though some have fallen asleep; thereafter he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles; and last of all, as if by a miscarried baby, he was seen by me also." (1 Corinthians 15:4-8).

This straightforward account sets the minimal claim for an event of maximal implausibility. Take it or leave it.

Later narratives, with their empty tombs, their literary and theologically amplified variations on a theme about something perhaps none of the authors had witnessed, weaken by comparison. Certainly the event is not described in a consistently documentary manner, and the narratives themselves bear all the hallmarks of a contemporary narrative tradition – none as sophisticated, perhaps, but all the signs are there. These are literary works, intended for literary audiences. Mark's might be addressed more to a common readership, Matthew's bears all the signs of a sophisticated Jewish writer addressing an equally sophisticated audience. Luke is writing for the better class of gentile. John reflects a certain spiritual sensibility.

They were writing texts for people who were used to reading such texts. They employed the same stylistic devices as their literary predecessors and contemporaries. They organised their received data into embodies narratives that presented the 'fact of the matter' as they understood it.

Paul’s remarks fall outside any narrative or theological genre; they are pithy, unadorned statements of what he had heard and had himself experienced.

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The datum of faith for the early Christian followers was the Resurrection and the witness of Christ – without that, Christianity would not have survived its early, tempestuous centuries. Something they believed in, and thought worth dying for.
I don't know why you would come to that conclusion..
Islam survived, without Muhammad 'dying and rising'. :)
 
OK ... and that's OK ... and I accept it as your position.

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Why I cannot accept it.
Absolutely! And I can accept that as your position and the position of millions of Christians before you that kept that torch burning so I and others could glean value from the writings for us.

Here stateside one such person is Thomas Jefferson, author of the declaration that separated our ancestors a couple hundred years ago, and his bible which separates our positions today!

I am eternally grateful for your belief, your education and research, your insight shared with all of us...it is often a joy to read!

Just as I am thankful for Fillmore, for without his writings I would not have gotten the joy nd understanding I receive from the bible today.
 
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OK ... and that's OK ... and I accept it as your position.

+++

Why I cannot accept it.

Hart, a classicist, knows Graeco-Roman late antiquity extremely well. His reputation is without question. He writes:
"I simply cannot place the teachings of Christ as they are credibly recounted in the gospels within the normal continuum of the religious and moral expectations of their age."

Speaking of the discourse between Jesus and Pilate at Jesus' arrest: "I cannot say with sufficient emphasis how absurd it should have seemed in the context of that age to see this condemned slave and rustic subject of empire as the very presence of God in this scene."

In short – Christianity survived not because of an idea or a principle, but because of a man. You can't take the man out any more than you can read the 'historical' man back in.

Christianity survived because a man lived, dies, and rose from the dead.

Scholars now accept the existence of a man, commonly known as Jesus, an apocalyptic prophet, healer and wonder-worker, who was arrested and executed by crucifixion by the Roman authorities, and that, really, should have been the end of it. It's the only logical reason how and why a body of believers appears on the scene with such a radical message.

And what is the core of that message: The Jesus was crucified, and on the third day rose again.

To be Christian is to believe in His resurrection.

Without that, Christianity would not have survived. It would have vanished along with the other prophets and wonder workers of the age. And the teachings? Without that, what do we have? The exhortations to justice and mercy, the care of the poor and oppressed, the warning of Divine Retribution. But all that is there in the great prophetic writings of Israel. And pagan culture had its own schools of compassion and universal brother- and sisterhood. We have the Golden Rule.

Without the Resurrection, the writings would not have survived, because quite simply they lack the merit to be worth copying. They're nowhere nearly as literate and sophisticated as the similar heroic narratives of their contemporaries – and look at how few of those survived, and how few fans and followers they have garnered across history.

The datum of faith for the early Christian followers was the Resurrection and the witness of Christ – without that, Christianity would not have survived its early, tempestuous centuries. Something they believed in, and thought worth dying for.

Paul is the first voice we hear – he speaks of his own experience as the last, or at least the most recent, of those experiences:
" … and that he was entombed, and that he was raised on the third day in accord with the scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve; thereafter he was seen by over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain till now, though some have fallen asleep; thereafter he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles; and last of all, as if by a miscarried baby, he was seen by me also." (1 Corinthians 15:4-8).

This straightforward account sets the minimal claim for an event of maximal implausibility. Take it or leave it.

Later narratives, with their empty tombs, their literary and theologically amplified variations on a theme about something perhaps none of the authors had witnessed, weaken by comparison. Certainly the event is not described in a consistently documentary manner, and the narratives themselves bear all the hallmarks of a contemporary narrative tradition – none as sophisticated, perhaps, but all the signs are there. These are literary works, intended for literary audiences. Mark's might be addressed more to a common readership, Matthew's bears all the signs of a sophisticated Jewish writer addressing an equally sophisticated audience. Luke is writing for the better class of gentile. John reflects a certain spiritual sensibility.

They were writing texts for people who were used to reading such texts. They employed the same stylistic devices as their literary predecessors and contemporaries. They organised their received data into embodies narratives that presented the 'fact of the matter' as they understood it.

Paul’s remarks fall outside any narrative or theological genre; they are pithy, unadorned statements of what he had heard and had himself experienced.

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I'm thinking that maybe Christianity survived because of the Holy Spirit that Jesus breathed into the community that formed around Him at Capernaum.
 
I don't know why you would come to that conclusion..
Islam survived, without Muhammad 'dying and rising'. :)
Islam had been well established both in numbers and in expansion by the time of the Prophet's death (pbuh). He had control of Arabia.

Christianity had nowhere near the same presence, geographically, economically or militarily.
 
I'm thinking that maybe Christianity survived because of the Holy Spirit that Jesus breathed into the community that formed around Him at Capernaum.
You'd have to contextualise that for me ...
 
Islam had been well established both in numbers and in expansion by the time of the Prophet's death (pbuh)..
Right ..

Christianity had nowhere near the same presence, geographically, economically or militarily..
..which only goes to show how Orthodox Christianity, as we know it today, could have more
easily been manipulated by those with power at that time.

For example, we know that it started as an offshoot of Judaism, believing that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah .. something that caused controversy at the time.
 
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