What the Hell?

Thomas

So it goes ...
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Throw everything out, wipe the slate clean, go back to the New Testament, and start again.

In the NT, there is no text at all that corresponds to the High Medieval Christian idea of Hell as a place of eternal torture ruled over by Satan and his minions.

There is Hades in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19), but that is a parable, not a prophecy of an eschatalogical state.

There is Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4, from pagan Greek lore, referring to a place deep in pagan Hades, of imprisonment and punishment, most especially of the Titans. In Peter the reference is to a prison where fallen angels and their demonic offspring are held until the day of judgment.

And then there is the gehenna
From the Aramaic of the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom, ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (originally Ge-ben-Hinnom, ‘Valley of Hinnom’s Son’). This appears 11 times in the synoptic Gospels (7 in Matthew, 3 in Mark, and once in Luke), and only once in the rest of the New Testament (in the Letter of James). Why this valley, south and west of Jerusalem, had by Christ’s time become, in apocalyptic literature and emerging Rabbinic tradition, a name for a place of punishment or purification or both is difficult to tell.

Scripture and tradition tell of it as the place of child sacrifice for worshippers of Moloch and Ba’al (Leviticus, 2 Chronicles, 2 Kings, Isaiah and Jeremiah). There might have been tombs, and after the arrival of the Romans, crematory grounds. A Mediaeval tradition, which may draw on older accounts, say the valley served as a rubbish tip and charnel ground, where refuse was burned and where animal and human corpses were left as carrion, but evidence for any of this is lacking.

Christ himself describes the valley in terms of Isaiah 66: 24, of human corpses being consumed by inexterminable worms and inextinguishable fires (neither of which, incidentally, is described as either otherworldly or eternal in nature).

No one knows for sure precisely how this valley became a metaphor for divine punishment, in this world or the next. Neither do we know with great certainty precisely what meanings and connotations the term would have had for Jesus or for his listeners.

Before, during, and soon after the time of Jesus, it was common parlance among a great many sects and schools, understood sometimes as a place of final destruction, sometimes simply as a place of punishment, and sometimes as a place of purgatorial regeneration.

The two dominant rabbinical schools of Christ’s day, that of Shammai and that of Hillel, both spoke of it as a place of purification or punishment of a limited duration, but both also taught that for the incorrigibly wicked there would, or could, be a state of eternal or final shame, remorse, suffering, or ruin.
Shammai had a somewhat grimmer view of the number of the ultimately lost (about a third of humanity, on some accounts), whereas Hillel had a far keener sense of the power of God’s mercy to save. For Shammai, the gehenna was principally a refiner’s fire for those souls neither incorrigibly wicked nor blamelessly good, and those subjected to its pains would ultimately be raised up to paradise. Hillel apparently thought of the gehenna as a place of final punishment and annihilation (body and soul) of the utterly depraved, but thought their number extremely small.

And rabbinical tradition says that it is from Hillel that what became the standard Rabbinic view – that no one can suffer in the gehenna for more than twelve months – originally comes; the idea at least goes back as far as Rabbi Akiva, in the generation just after Christ.

But, really, we do not know whether Jesus advanced a similar view of the gehenna’s fire, or what duration he might have assigned to the sufferings of those committed to it, or how metaphorically or literally he or his listeners might have understood its imagery. Clearly, though, metaphor was his natural idiom, and so it seems unlikely that his language here should be assumed to be any more literal than his language of ovens or harvests or threshing floors.

Later Christian tradition casts no real light on the issue, given the diversity of views that prevailed in the early centuries of the church.

And there is a total absence of any language of the gehenna, or of any kind of lasting postmortem torment, in the earliest Christian documents we possess – the letters of Paul.

Whether Jesus viewed that fire as one of final destruction or one of purification, we just cannot say.

The former possibility – annihilation – is an imagery frequently employed by Jesus – chaff and darnel weeds, dead branches being consumed in an oven (if these are metaphors for sinners rather than, as certain patristic exegetes believed, for their sins).

Then there is Matthew 10:28, “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

But those same images could serve the other view equally well. Then we have Jesus in the Gospels offering metaphors of the punishments that follow from divine judgment:
– if remanded to the prison, “you shall most certainly not emerge from there until you repay the very last pittance” (Matthew 5:26; cf. Luke 12:59);
– the unmerciful slave is “delivered ... to the inquisitors until he should repay everything owing” (Matthew 18:34);
– some wicked slaves “will be beaten with many blows” and others “beaten with few blows” (Luke 12: 47, 48);
– “everyone will be salted with fire,” the fire in question being explicitly that of the gehenna, and salting being a common image of purification and preservation – for “salt is good” (Mark 9:49-50).

It's worth looking at Mark 9 here:
41: And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
42 And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire:
43 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished
44 And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:
45 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
46 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:
47 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
But do we then accept that Jesus, the Bible and the Church should endorse self harm and suicide?

And the phrase "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished" is a direct reference to Isaiah, who is speaking of the bodies, not the souls, of the dead.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, distinguishes not between the saved and the damned, but between those who (passing the test of fire) merit reward and those who (their works failing that test) will “suffer loss, yet shall be saved, though so as by fire” (v15).

As for the remaining possibility, that the gehenna is a name for a place neither of annihilation nor of purification, but of eternal conscious torment – the God of Love’s perpetual torture chamber – for this rather repellant idea there is the least evidence in the Gospels (if any); but the notion may have some precedent in Jewish apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Enoch, as well as in some early Rabbinic traditions, and it accords with most later Christian readings of that sole suggestive verse, Matthew 25:46 (especially after the fifth century).

St Gregory of Nyssa, a Universalist, a spiritual as well as exegetical genius, assumed the purgatorial view of the gehenna, and was able to unite all the various biblical texts in a seamless synthesis in his writings, omitting nothing known to him as Christian canon – and he was a declared Universalist.

Conversely, the Latin-speaking Augustine, who had such an impact on Western theological development, took very much the contrary view but
– was far more selective in his use of scripture,
– was very much dependent on often misleading translations,
– and had to expend enormous energy on qualifying, rephrasing, and explaining away a host of passages that did not really conform comfortably to the theological system he imagined he had found in Paul’s writings.

One might also suppose that other images of exclusion used by Jesus – locked doors, outer darkness, wailing and the grinding of teeth – are descriptions of a literally perpetual state of existence after death, of which there can be no end and from which there is no hope of deliverance through purification. And one can perhaps assume that the “inexcusable” sin of blasphemy against the Spirit, mentioned in all three synoptic Gospels, is one for which the penalty exacted must be everlasting, rather than one necessarily leading to either annihilation or purification.

But the texts do not actually say any of that, and again, there is
no hint of any such notion in the Pauline corpus
– or in John’s Gospel.
– Or is there in the “Catholic Epistles,”
– or very early texts like the Didache and Apostles’ Creed,
– or the writings of the Apostolic Fathers ...

the very concept of eternal punishment is as Biblically unsound as it is morally unintelligible.

In the end we reconcile the passages in the NT as we so choose.

The most one can honestly say is the text does not say anything with anywhere near the satisfaction and certainty we suppose
 
But, really, we do not know whether Jesus advanced a similar view of the gehenna’s fire, or what duration he might have assigned to the sufferings of those committed to it, or how metaphorically or literally he or his listeners might have understood its imagery. Clearly, though, metaphor was his natural idiom, and so it seems unlikely that his language here should be assumed to be any more literal than his language of ovens or harvests or threshing floors.

I recently said:
What we have have earnt through hard work is our own .. to spend on our family and community.
"G-d has forbidden usury, and encouraged almsgiving"

and you said "The Gospel – taken literally – says otherwise ..."

..so it would seem that you do sometimes like to take verses literally. :)
However, I would agree with you that a metaphorical interpretation is more logical.
..such as a simlitude of an insane person screaming all night long and unable to sleep .. ouch!

..As for the remaining possibility, that the gehenna is a name for a place neither of annihilation nor of purification, but of eternal conscious torment – the God of Love’s perpetual torture chamber – for this rather repellant idea there is the least evidence in the Gospels (if any); but the notion may have some precedent in Jewish apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Enoch, as well as in some early Rabbinic traditions, and it accords with most later Christian readings of that sole suggestive verse, Matthew 25:46 (especially after the fifth century).
Why do you blame G-d for the suffering of souls?
Did G-d not warn us about the consequences of turning away from truth?

We cannot have it both ways .. either we have free-will .. or G-d 'waves His wand' and removes it.
I see no evidence of that .. I see that we are indeed responsible for our own actions.

..the very concept of eternal punishment is as Biblically unsound as it is morally unintelligible..
I disagree .. G-d knows best what He has created ..
For example, some people who are imprisoned in this life repent .. and some do not.

In the end we reconcile the passages in the NT as we so choose..
..or as we understand .. the word "choose" in this context implies likes and dislikes.
 
Hillel apparently thought of the gehenna as a place of final punishment and annihilation (body and soul) of the utterly depraved, but thought their number extremely small.
That's what I grew up hearing
Then there is Matthew 10:28, “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
That's what I was taught
that fire as one of final destruction
Grandpa was most adamant I remember one long rant where we were all captive audience and he had the bible open...
the very concept of eternal punishment is as Biblically unsound as it is morally unintelligible.
Yes
Why do you blame G-d for the suffering of souls?
Did G-d not warn us about the consequences of turning away from truth?
If G-d "prepared" the place of suffering, it's an executive decision
We cannot have it both ways .. either we have free-will .. or G-d 'waves His wand' and removes it.
I see no evidence of that .. I see that we are indeed responsible for our own actions.
I don't understand that framing. You can be responsible for something without deserving to be burned alive for it. Sheesh! Much less for eternity!
It's the all or nothing thinking that sinks the whole argument there. If G-d changed the policy of eternal torment, I just don't see how the only other option is no responsibility at all. I mean at a bare minimum give G-d credit for a little more creativity than that. As to the morality.. Concentration camps are morally repugnant are they not? Why? And... After all if the wages of sin is death, as I learned, we don't really have this debate about the morally repugnance of it. Not really.
What makes people happy with the doctrine of eternal hell? Are people in a trance? What is it I am not seeing?
I disagree .. G-d knows best what He has created ..
For example, some people who are imprisoned in this life repent .. and some do not.
That doesn't mean hell is not a morally repugnant idea.
As I mentioned.... Aren't concentration camps horrible? Aren't those who create them morally bad? Why?
As to the whole shebang
The wages of sin is death, after all.
 
Why do you blame G-d for the suffering of souls?
I don't. I rather think we read the text to justify our sense of justice.

Did G-d not warn us about the consequences of turning away from truth?
I'm not saying sin is without consequence.

We cannot have it both ways .. either we have free-will .. or G-d 'waves His wand' and removes it.
I see no evidence of that .. I see that we are indeed responsible for our own actions.
So do I ... and I hope and pray we have the opportunity to repent our errors.

I disagree .. G-d knows best what He has created ..
For example, some people who are imprisoned in this life repent .. and some do not.
That is no way relevant to the point you disagree with.

..or as we understand .. the word "choose" in this context implies likes and dislikes.
Yes. We are predisposed to understandings ...
 
In modern day America if you have trash that doesn't fit in the bin you may have to drive it to the dump, which is now a 30 yard container which ya throw your stuff in and they haul it off.

If ya live in small town America there is a ravine someplace ya go and throw your trash over the hill.

At grandma's house much of the trash was thrown in the burn barrel and incinerate.

My understanding in the time of Jesus and before Gehenna was the dump, it was where everything was pushed over the edge, where they lit fires to burn the rubbish. It was where the poor and indigent picked thru other people's trash to find items worth fixing or resting or maybe find morsels of food someone thru out...one person's trash, another's treasure.

It was also the place dead animals were taken to be burned and those without money for burial would be disposed of. It stunk to high heaven of rotting and burning flesh, and constantly needed raking and pushing around to decompose and return to ashes.

So when mom is walking the children, maybe to go toss something out, or merely walking by the dump, Gehenna, or hell...

As they walked by, mom trying to skirt thru the smell and stench...the kids naturally gawked at the indigent searching for scraps, the workers stirring the fires insuring the bodies were well consumed by the fires...

And mom would say to the children.
."If you don't listen, if you don't learn your studies, if you don't follow the rules...the only job you will get is to labor in the dump, if you can't get that job you will be searching in Gehenna for food and scraps like those people, and of you don't obey the commandments you will die without anything, and burn in the fires of Hell forever."
 
20 kids in a classroom. Some like the teacher, some think the teacher hates them. Some struggle wit the lessons, for others the problems are a easy and they complete them quickly. Some students are prepared and have studied, others have no time for that and everything seems problematic.

The difference is preparation, study, practice am understanding of the work or human nature understanding how to satisfy the requirements of the teacher.

It's the same teacher, the same classroom, the same text and same problems.

Some kids are in heaven, and some in hell.

Heaven and hell to me are places on earth of our own creation, manifested from our own choices and perspectives.
 
I don't understand that framing. You can be responsible for something without deserving to be burned alive for it..
As I have already said, it is how I perceive the nature of reality .. particularly in the context of
a life hereafter, where our deeds are no longer hidden.

I do not see G-d as 'a person' or soul, that delivers justice as a human judge does.
To me, the 'burning alive' signifies extreme suffering, and not some being called G-d torturing
people.

For me, it is all about the nature of a soul, and the inevitable consequence of our deeds.
In a life hereafter, there is no paradise in solitary confinement, for instance..

If G-d changed the policy of eternal torment, I just don't see how the only other option is no responsibility at all..
What does that even mean?
I suppose for those that see G-d as a person who judges, it makes some kind of sense..
I would agree that in some Scripture, it appears as if G-d IS a person .. but I would argue
that communication with human beings requires such an implication to communicate. :)
i.e. to get the point across

..and the idea of eternal meaning 'never-ending' in this context, is besides the point.
One can substitute eternal for 'a very long time', and still it has relevance.

We can see this, from the fact that debate about euthanasia is becoming more global.
Suffering, even for a few years, is not easy to bear. :(

..After all if the wages of sin is death, as I learned, we don't really have this debate about the morally repugnance of it. Not really.
As far as I can see, that refers to 'spiritual death' .. destruction .. failure.
It clearly does not refer to physical death, as we all die.

What makes people happy with the doctrine of eternal hell?
Happy? What is there to be happy about?
It is a warning (and not a threat), that our deeds have consequences for our souls..
..nothing to do with 'a supreme being' torturing people.

I suppose, if you envisage a soul as being CREATED by G-d, and G-d can DESTROY a soul, then
you would have a different philosophy .. such as "G-d, a supreme soul", making new souls like Him,
but the supreme soul cannot be destroyed.

..but this would be a philosophy on a human, physical level of understanding.
i.e things being created and destroyed

Again, it all comes down to the nature of what a soul is.
My understanding, is that it is "from G-d", and is not created, and therefore cannot be destroyed.
..just like G-d cannot be destroyed!
i.e. as in physical matter can be destroyed
 
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And mom would say to the children.
."If you don't listen, if you don't learn your studies, if you don't follow the rules...the only job you will get is to labor in the dump, if you can't get that job you will be searching in Gehenna for food and scraps like those people, and of you don't obey the commandments you will die without anything, and burn in the fires of Hell forever."
And she'd quite likely be wrong.
 
Heaven and hell to me are places on earth of our own creation, manifested from our own choices and perspectives.
OK, but we're not talking about subjective mental or emotional states here ...
 
20 kids in a classroom. Some like the teacher, some think the teacher hates them. Some struggle wit the lessons, for others the problems are a easy and they complete them quickly. Some students are prepared and have studied, others have no time for that and everything seems problematic.

The difference is preparation, study, practice am understanding of the work or human nature understanding how to satisfy the requirements of the teacher.
Or natural ability.
Also interest.
 
For me, it is all about the nature of a soul, and the inevitable consequence of our deeds.
akin to karma
As far as I can see, that refers to 'spiritual death' .. destruction .. failure.
It clearly does not refer to physical death, as we all die.
what does death mean then?
do you think destruction and failure mean the same thing?
Do they mean something different from ceasing to exist?
All 3 could mean something different
I suppose all 3 words are used to describe the collapse of a structure like a building.
Failure of the walls, destruction of the entity, ceasing to exist of the entity (the building in this analogy)
 
We cannot have it both ways .. either we have free-will .. or G-d 'waves His wand' and removes it.
I see no evidence of that .. I see that we are indeed responsible for our own actions.
If G-d changed the policy of eternal torment, I just don't see how the only other option is no responsibility at all.
What does that even mean?
How can I explain? I guess I am not making myself understood.
But I will go back to this
We cannot have it both ways .. either we have free-will .. or G-d 'waves His wand' and removes it.
I see no evidence of that .. I see that we are indeed responsible for our own actions.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
 
Again, it all comes down to the nature of what a soul is.
My understanding, is that it is "from G-d", and is not created, and therefore cannot be destroyed.
..just like G-d cannot be destroyed!
i.e. as in physical matter can be destroyed
Matthew 10:28


How do you know the soul cannot be destroyed?
G-d cannot?
 
What makes people happy with the doctrine of eternal hell? Are people in a trance? What is it I am not seeing?
Happy? What is there to be happy about?
Good question and kinda my point
(But ALSO people defend the doctrine so fiercely as if they feel robbed when it is questioned - like a precious idea that they cherished forever is being ripped away from them or something. So I gotta ask)

..but this would be a philosophy on a human, physical level of understanding.
What do you base this on?

Also, is the soul for sure a separate thing from the body?
What is a soul?
 
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