Not everybody. Most everybody is schooled into it.
For sure.
Loving the ones like ourselves is easy. Loving those who are not like us at all is harder.
I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses
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Loving the ones like ourselves is easy. Loving those who are not like us at all is harder.
walter
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Berean Standard Bible
But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, Luke 6:27
But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, Luke 6:27
walter
Scripture "context" alone for understanding.
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So why do we do what Jesus commanded us? Answer: Because Jesus asked us to and the other scriptures confirm this.
Matthew 28:20, Hebrews 5:9, Luke 8:21
Jesus gave us Salvation He paid the price in the first place, it is not from anything we do, it is a free gift, it's all about what Jesus did!
Matthew 28:20, Hebrews 5:9, Luke 8:21
Jesus gave us Salvation He paid the price in the first place, it is not from anything we do, it is a free gift, it's all about what Jesus did!
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Alter2Ego
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Thomas:
I don't have to go back and read Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 again because I'm not the one REFUSING to accept that only dead people require resurrection. I'm not the one making the fallacious claim that despite being dead, "some form of consciousness to hear and respond," remains.
Definition of Resurrection
"the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence."
resurrection
1. the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or…
dictionary.cambridge.org
POST 568 -- The last paragraph.
I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses
In context, yes ... taken alone, they could well be completely misunderstood. So if we can't use "the context" in the scripture, are you suggesting we listen to [ advice or context ] not found in the Bible? Didn't Jesus and the Apostle Paul tell us not to listen to the traditions of men who...
www.interfaith.org
Never mind that your belief that the dead are still "conscious to hear and respond" is debunked by Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."Because you REFUSE to be corrected by scripture at Ecclesiastes 9:5, you came up with Jesus' parable aka illustration of the FICTITIOUS Rich Man and Lazarus as proof that, to quote you: "some form of consciousness to hear and respond" continues to exist in dead people. Below are some questions for you, along with scriptures. Your answers must be either YES or NO or else TRUE or FALSE.
"And Jehovah God formed man [Adam] of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7 -- American Standard Version)
QUESTION #1 to Thomas: According to Genesis 2:7, the first man, Adam, became a living person AFTER Jehovah breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #2 to Thomas: Even after Jehovah formed Adam out of the dust so that Adam looked like a human, did Adam have "some form of consciousness to hear and respond" BEFORE Jehovah God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life? YES or NO?
Genesis 3:17
"And to Adam he [Jehovah] said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life.Genesis 3:18
It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field.Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”QUESTION #3 to Thomas: When Jehovah God told Adam he would return to the dust (which is how Adam started off prior to Jehovah forming him into a man and breathing into him the breath of life) is there any mention in that scripture that Adam would have "some form of consciousness to hear and respond" after he returned to the dust? YES or NO?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
QUESTION #4 to Thomas: According to Romans 6:23, Death is the opposite of Life. TRUE or FALSE?
_________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Hi @Alter2Ego –
You do realise this is a discussion forum? You do realise this is a place, first and foremost, to share and compare?
If you're going to get annoyed with those who disagree with you, perhaps this is not the right forum for you?
Either way, I am not here to be lectured in such hectoring tones, so please mind your manners, else we'll have nothing more to say to each other.
The Bible seems to imply, in multiple places, that the soul has some form of continuance, after the death of the physical body.
So here you have asked four questions:
A1 is 'true', and A2 is 'no' – any other answer would be irrational.
Q3 is actually a false question, because you are asking for a yes/no answer, from the text, to a question the text does not address.
Q4 is 'true'.
So what does this show?
I have no idea. I don't know what point you think is self-evident here, but I don't see one.
The issue with your Q3:
God forms a body from the dust of the earth. God then breathes life into that body, and that body becomes a 'living soul'. When the living being dies, the body returns to the earth from whence it came. What happens to the soul? Genesis 3 doesn't say.
You do realise this is a discussion forum? You do realise this is a place, first and foremost, to share and compare?
If you're going to get annoyed with those who disagree with you, perhaps this is not the right forum for you?
Either way, I am not here to be lectured in such hectoring tones, so please mind your manners, else we'll have nothing more to say to each other.
Did I actually say that? I'm sure I didn't ... that's quite deep in my theology and I wouldn't wish any of my deeper insights on you.
No, I am making that claim, and it's not fallacious, as far as I am concerned.
The Bible seems to imply, in multiple places, that the soul has some form of continuance, after the death of the physical body.
I do not refuse to be corrected by Scripture, I refuse to be corrected by you.
You are a very rude ... has anyone ever told you that?
True.
No.
Void question.
True.
So here you have asked four questions:
A1 is 'true', and A2 is 'no' – any other answer would be irrational.
Q3 is actually a false question, because you are asking for a yes/no answer, from the text, to a question the text does not address.
Q4 is 'true'.
So what does this show?
I have no idea. I don't know what point you think is self-evident here, but I don't see one.
The issue with your Q3:
God forms a body from the dust of the earth. God then breathes life into that body, and that body becomes a 'living soul'. When the living being dies, the body returns to the earth from whence it came. What happens to the soul? Genesis 3 doesn't say.
moralorel
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I know of none. I have put people to the same challenge for years. None pulled it off.
Alter2Ego
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I don't believe I'm using hectoring tones with you or anybody else. Neither have I used disrespectful language. I say what I have to say without beating around the bush. I don't think people who are sensitive should come to debate forums where they are exposed to all types of individuals, and then they proceed to get upset when their false claims are debunked.
If you don't want to continue this conversation, so be it. You are free to believe dead people are still alive in some manner, if that's what makes you happy. Never mind that scripture says otherwise.
Farewell.
_________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
I think part of the problem may be that you seem to be viewing the forum as debate forums. Although from time-to- time discussions here can get a little hot and heavy, debate is not really what the forum is about. Disagreement and argument are fine, but coating them with disdain and/or arrogance crosses a line.
I think you can tone down the rhetoric while still presenting your case with passion.
Alter2Ego
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RabbiO:
I don't believe I'm addressing anyone here with "disdain and/or arrogance." Neither have I written anything to anyone here that "crosses a line." You are giving your opinion.
BTW: If this isn't a debate forum, why is just about everyone in this thread debating with one another? Also, if, as you admitted, "discussions here can get a little hot and heavy," why are you singling me out?
I have abandoned religion forums over the years because of moderators trying to micromanage. I have never been at a website where even the regular members take it upon themselves to micromanage other posters. Strangely enough, you haven't complained openly about anybody else here, despite the fact several here have been throwing barbs at each other. You showed up here to complain on the open forum simply to draw moderator attention TO ME and get me banned.
_________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
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How do you arrive at that conclusion about @RabbiO 's motives?
Here on this forum, there is occasional debate, but it is not a debate forum as such.
Many people here have been here for a very long time.
Here people truly are NOT thin skinned by any means, we can be a bit stern with one another from time to time, but always within a context of respect.
It does sound like you are taking @Thomas and @Clear to task and like you are annoyed with them.
Do you respect others here? Do you respect @Thomas @RabbiO @Clear or others?
Alter2Ego
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Well said, pinney.
According to the Trinitarians that I debated at other websites, Jesus was God in the flesh. They've yet to explain how mere humans could possibly kill the literal God.
An atheist at another website that I sometimes visit enjoys making a mockery of Christians. Below is one of the images he/she posted the other day. It says: "Atheist: Because God sending himself to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself is a little bit much for any logical person." The following weblink will take you to his/her post.
Perspectives-United States Courts: Atheism is Religion
Atheist religionists are of the mistaken belief that by simply denying the existence of the supernatural God or gods, that equates to not belonging to
And that Atheist image is right on point. That's exactly what it amounts to if the Abrahamic God and his created son, Jesus Christ, were indeed in a Trinity where they are both the same god--along with Jehovah's holy spirit, which isn't even a person.
_________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
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In my experience, the easiest thing in the world is to be misunderstood on a forum.
If it were me, I'd check with others if I could to get a view of how I come across.
Well, what that covers a multitude of sins.
Well as I'm not the one being debunked, I wouldn't know.
I'm not sure anyone here would accuse me of being over-sensitive? (To all: PM if otherwise.)
I think perhaps I can be perceived as someone who's not inclined to let things go, way beyond the point of everyone saying 'give it a rest' ...
I see no fruit to be had here, as things currently stand.
You see, I think you've applied Ecclesiastes to the eschaton, when I suggest the author is talking about this life, "under this sun", not the next.
I would offer that the author of Ecclesiastes actually declares he knows nothing of the eschaton:
"19 Therefore the death of man, and of beasts is one, and the condition of them both is equal: as man dieth, so they also die: all things breathe alike, and man hath nothing more than beast: all things are subject to vanity. 20 And all things go to one place: of earth they were made, and into earth they return together. 21 Who knoweth if the spirit of the children of Adam ascend upward, and if the spirit of the beasts descend downward? 22 And I have found that nothing is better than for a man to rejoice in his work, and that this is his portion. For who shall bring him to know the things that shall be after him?" (Ecclesiastes 3:19-22 underscores mine)
This raises the issue of Jewish speculation on the afterlife, and that evolves across the breadth of the Hebrew Scriptures.
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The Afterlife, according to Ecclesiastes:
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 (ESV):
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?"
As per my response to the Qe on @Alter2Ego, the author of Ecclesiastes draws a distinction, that which is of the dust returns to dust, whereas that which is of the "spirit of man" – רוּחַ בְּנֵי הָאָדָם rûaḥ bēn 'āḏām – might go up or down.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ESV):
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
Ecclesiastes 12:5,7 (ESV):
"They are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets ... and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (emphasis mine)
Ecclesiastes advocates the bipartite human nature – body and spirit/soul – of Genesis 2:7. At death, the body becomes dust and returns to the earth, the spirit returns to God who gave it (3:20 & 12:7). However, 9:10 also tell us that when man dies, he goes to Sheol.
+++
The real point here is none of these things are literal – it's all figurative. The human is not 'made from dust' but via a process of gestation, and the human does not simply 'return to dust', but undergoes a period of putrefaction, breaking down and, in the process, gives life to all manner of biological and bacteriological organisms, and the sacred scribes understood this in general terms if not forensic biological detail.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 (ESV):
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?"
As per my response to the Qe on @Alter2Ego, the author of Ecclesiastes draws a distinction, that which is of the dust returns to dust, whereas that which is of the "spirit of man" – רוּחַ בְּנֵי הָאָדָם rûaḥ bēn 'āḏām – might go up or down.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ESV):
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
Ecclesiastes 12:5,7 (ESV):
"They are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets ... and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (emphasis mine)
Ecclesiastes advocates the bipartite human nature – body and spirit/soul – of Genesis 2:7. At death, the body becomes dust and returns to the earth, the spirit returns to God who gave it (3:20 & 12:7). However, 9:10 also tell us that when man dies, he goes to Sheol.
+++
The real point here is none of these things are literal – it's all figurative. The human is not 'made from dust' but via a process of gestation, and the human does not simply 'return to dust', but undergoes a period of putrefaction, breaking down and, in the process, gives life to all manner of biological and bacteriological organisms, and the sacred scribes understood this in general terms if not forensic biological detail.
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I have absolutely no desire to have you banned from the forum. You have misread me.
Thomas said: “The issue with your Q3:
God forms a body from the dust of the earth. God then breathes life into that body, and that body becomes a 'living soul'. When the living being dies, the body returns to the earth from whence it came. What happens to the soul? Genesis 3 doesn't say.”
Hi Thomas, I just wanted to make a specific observation that I think you are aware of (but other readers may not be).
While genesis 3 doesn’t say what happens to the spirit placed in the body of Adam (and the rest of us), there are multiple other sacred texts that make clear that while the body decomposes (i.e. returns to the earth), the spirit within us returns to God which was the doctrine described by early Judeo-Christians in their literature.
The early Judeo-Christians did not interpret the scriptures to mean the same as the Jehovahs Witnesses but instead, the ancient Christian left us many, many written witnesses to their early belief that a spirit was placed in the body of Adam (and all of mankind). The fact that the Jehovahs Witness interpretation of the ancient Christian texts in their modern religious movement is quite different than the interpretation and religion the Ancient Christians describe simply means they are two different religions with different interpretations and different theologies.
For example, Ecclesiastes 12 begins by encouraging us to “remember the one creating you” before arriving at old age and when our bodies lose their youth and are breaking down to eventually die.
Vs 7 tell us to remember him, before our bodies break down in old age and death comes to us “and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who granted it.”
While the ancient Judeo-Christian belief in the existence of a spirit within each body, this does not mean the ancient form of Christian religion was true or false, it does mean it was a different religion than the religion created by the Jehovahs Witness movement.
The ancient Judeo-Christian religion that taught that there was a spirit in each of us, seems (to me), to be a much more mature and informed and detailed theology than that which was created by the many Christian movements of the early modern period (such as the Jehovahs Witness movement).
Hi Alter2Ego
I do not think respondents such as Thomas, or RabbiO or others are trying to get you "kicked off" the forum.
This claim feels like it is yet another veiled ad hominem meant to characterize others as "mean" and you as their "victim".
While all of us see the world through our own lenses, I don't see you as a consistent victim of ill will of others.
Perhaps you could consider the possibility that you also create and contribute to the response of others to your manner of dialogue.
As I said, ad hominems are not an efficient way to communicate accurately.
I hope such insights can come to you and be helpful to you in your own wonderful spiritual journey.
PLEASE DO NOT FORGET I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR YOU TO ANSWER MY PRIOR QUESTIONS FROM POST 532
CLEAR ASKED:
1) Regarding the resurrected body in Jehovahs Witness Theology
Since, upon the death of a person, absolutely nothing remains of the dead person, I assume that, in Jehovahs Witness theology, resurrection of the person who had been annihilated consists of God creating a different body (i.e. one capable of a heavenly existence).
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?
2) Regarding the resurrected personality, intelligence and emotions placed into a resurrected body
Since the original personality, intelligence and emotions no longer exist, I assume that, in Jehovahs witness theology, that God places another set of personality, intelligence and emotions into the resurrected body.
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?
God forms a body from the dust of the earth. God then breathes life into that body, and that body becomes a 'living soul'. When the living being dies, the body returns to the earth from whence it came. What happens to the soul? Genesis 3 doesn't say.”
Hi Thomas, I just wanted to make a specific observation that I think you are aware of (but other readers may not be).
While genesis 3 doesn’t say what happens to the spirit placed in the body of Adam (and the rest of us), there are multiple other sacred texts that make clear that while the body decomposes (i.e. returns to the earth), the spirit within us returns to God which was the doctrine described by early Judeo-Christians in their literature.
The early Judeo-Christians did not interpret the scriptures to mean the same as the Jehovahs Witnesses but instead, the ancient Christian left us many, many written witnesses to their early belief that a spirit was placed in the body of Adam (and all of mankind). The fact that the Jehovahs Witness interpretation of the ancient Christian texts in their modern religious movement is quite different than the interpretation and religion the Ancient Christians describe simply means they are two different religions with different interpretations and different theologies.
For example, Ecclesiastes 12 begins by encouraging us to “remember the one creating you” before arriving at old age and when our bodies lose their youth and are breaking down to eventually die.
Vs 7 tell us to remember him, before our bodies break down in old age and death comes to us “and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who granted it.”
While the ancient Judeo-Christian belief in the existence of a spirit within each body, this does not mean the ancient form of Christian religion was true or false, it does mean it was a different religion than the religion created by the Jehovahs Witness movement.
The ancient Judeo-Christian religion that taught that there was a spirit in each of us, seems (to me), to be a much more mature and informed and detailed theology than that which was created by the many Christian movements of the early modern period (such as the Jehovahs Witness movement).
Hi Alter2Ego
I do not think respondents such as Thomas, or RabbiO or others are trying to get you "kicked off" the forum.
This claim feels like it is yet another veiled ad hominem meant to characterize others as "mean" and you as their "victim".
While all of us see the world through our own lenses, I don't see you as a consistent victim of ill will of others.
Perhaps you could consider the possibility that you also create and contribute to the response of others to your manner of dialogue.
As I said, ad hominems are not an efficient way to communicate accurately.
I hope such insights can come to you and be helpful to you in your own wonderful spiritual journey.
PLEASE DO NOT FORGET I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES FOR YOU TO ANSWER MY PRIOR QUESTIONS FROM POST 532
CLEAR ASKED:
1) Regarding the resurrected body in Jehovahs Witness Theology
Since, upon the death of a person, absolutely nothing remains of the dead person, I assume that, in Jehovahs Witness theology, resurrection of the person who had been annihilated consists of God creating a different body (i.e. one capable of a heavenly existence).
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?
2) Regarding the resurrected personality, intelligence and emotions placed into a resurrected body
Since the original personality, intelligence and emotions no longer exist, I assume that, in Jehovahs witness theology, that God places another set of personality, intelligence and emotions into the resurrected body.
Is this correct or do I misunderstand?
moralorel
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Nothing in the Bible claims that Jesus was an angel.
I'm not a believer in the trinity doctrine, but there is plenty of evidence that Jesus was the God of the OT. He wasn't the Father. He never claimed to be. We have discussed this in detail on this forum before.
moralorel
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Perhaps I missed it, but do JW's believe that people will go to heaven? Do they believe in a resurrection? If so, is it physical? Spiritual? Or both?
Is it just the 144,000?
I ask this because I have never had clarity on the subject and I have had a lot of JW friends over the years. I had a friend who claimed that only 144,000 would be alive in God's kingdom. He also believed it would be a physical, not spiritual life. He never got back to me on the matter. He wasn't allowed to speak to me anymore after he started asking questions.
Is it just the 144,000?
I ask this because I have never had clarity on the subject and I have had a lot of JW friends over the years. I had a friend who claimed that only 144,000 would be alive in God's kingdom. He also believed it would be a physical, not spiritual life. He never got back to me on the matter. He wasn't allowed to speak to me anymore after he started asking questions.
As I now understand it:
When you die, you simply cease to exist entirely. A total annihilation of the person. JWs regard the Hebrew word nephesh to mean 'a breathing creature', rather than the idea of a 'soul' as a distinct entity.
JWs believe a First Resurrection in which 144,000 will be raised to life with God in a spiritual heaven, where they will sit as rulers alongside God.
The rest of the human race will be resurrected to a paradisical life in a material heaven, on a resurrected earth. The righteous to live accordingly, the unrighteous having a chance to learn the lessons and come to the understanding of righteousness they failed to embody in their mortal lives. At some point these will undergo another judgement, at which they are deemed fit to live among the righteous, or not, in which case they die again.
There are no intermediates state between death and resurrection.
When you die, you simply cease to exist entirely. A total annihilation of the person. JWs regard the Hebrew word nephesh to mean 'a breathing creature', rather than the idea of a 'soul' as a distinct entity.
JWs believe a First Resurrection in which 144,000 will be raised to life with God in a spiritual heaven, where they will sit as rulers alongside God.
The rest of the human race will be resurrected to a paradisical life in a material heaven, on a resurrected earth. The righteous to live accordingly, the unrighteous having a chance to learn the lessons and come to the understanding of righteousness they failed to embody in their mortal lives. At some point these will undergo another judgement, at which they are deemed fit to live among the righteous, or not, in which case they die again.
There are no intermediates state between death and resurrection.
moralorel
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Do the JW's here concur? Is this statement a good summary of your beliefs about the afterlife and the resurrections?