purgatory does the bible teach it ?

M

mee

Guest
Purgatory​

Definition:
"According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven."

(New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) Not a Bible teaching.

​


On what is the teaching of purgatory based?

After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967, Vol. XI, p. 1034) acknowledges: "In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture." ​





"The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell."—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7. ​






Regarding the nature of purgatory, what do Catholic spokesmen say? ​




"Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation."—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XI, p. 1036, 1037.​




"What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess."—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 9. ​




so the question is

Does the soul survive the death of the body? ​


Ezek. 18:4, Dy: "The soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh; "man," JB; "one," NAB; "soul," Kx] that sinneth, the same shall die."​


Is further punishment for sin exacted after one’s death?
Rom. 6:7, NAB: "A man who is dead has been freed from sin." (Kx: "Guilt makes no more claim on a man who is dead.") ​




Are the dead able to experience joy because of confidence in the prospect of salvation?
Eccl. 9:5, JB: "The living know at least that they will die, the dead know nothing."
Isa. 38:18, JB: "Sheol does not praise you [Yahweh], death does not extol you; those who go down to the pit do not go on trusting in your faithfulness." (So how can any of them "experience great joy over the certainty of salvation"?) ​




According to the Bible, by what means is purification from sins accomplished? ​



1 John 1:7, 9, JB: "If we live our lives in the light, as he [God] is in the light, we are in union with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. . . . If we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong ["all our wrong-doing is purged away," Kx]."
Rev. 1:5, JB: "Jesus Christ . . . loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood." ​
​




so then it seems the bible does not teach that doctrine at all:) ​


its good to know what the bible REALLY TEACHES ,now MEE knows :)​












 
I think the "spirit" survives the death of the body. The "soul" as such is another elelment of us, our personality, which of course does die when we do.
Does our "spirit" go to a quarantine type of area called purgatory first before going on? Who know's! It would be nice to think that since we do suffer in life that it actually ends when we shed our flesh and bones to reveal the breeze of our spirit.
If there is more suffering to come in purgatory then we can reduce the prospect of it being less by trying to lead a righteous and caring life.

My thoughts :)
 
Penguin said:
I think the "spirit" survives the death of the body. The "soul" as such is another elelment of us, our personality, which of course does die when we do.
Does our "spirit" go to a quarantine type of area called purgatory first before going on? Who know's! It would be nice to think that since we do suffer in life that it actually ends when we shed our flesh and bones to reveal the breeze of our spirit.
If there is more suffering to come in purgatory then we can reduce the prospect of it being less by trying to lead a righteous and caring life.

My thoughts :)
Click to expand...


Like a purt e butter, fly.
 
Was it not all just taken wholesale from the fictional allegorical "Purgatorio" by Dante under orders from some Pope?

tao
 
Yes, it does:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

This fire is purgative ... this process is purgatory.

To anyone who's interested, Pope Benedict XVI offered some interesting words in an encyclical last November. It's a lengthy quote, but there is nothing I can cut ... it is worth the read, if one can do so with an open mind.

"Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1)."
Spe Salvi ("Saved by Hope") Paragraph 47.
Thomas
 
1914 — does the bible teach it ?

No, it doesn't.

As the saying goes — people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

+++

Please don't do this Mee — please don't use IO as a means of anti-Catholic propaganda.

If you can agree to such, I in return will cease from any critique of the persons, history and methods of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and confine myself purely to matters of theological dispute.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Yes, it does:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

This fire is purgative ... this process is purgatory.


Thomas
Click to expand...


There is a fire that we all face IN LIFE —tests of our faith. (John 15:20; James 1:2, 3)
 
There is no mention of 1914 though, is there?

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
There is no mention of 1914 though, is there?

Thomas
Click to expand...
for those who are into bible prophecy and chronology it is very clear to see:) and 1914 was the beginning of pangs of distress

Coinciding with what happened in heaven, 1914 saw the beginning of "the last days," the beginning of a time period that would end with the destruction of the system of things now prevailing.

Jesus foretold that the start of this period would be marked by world wars, food shortages, disease epidemics, devastating earthquakes, and increased lawlessness as well as the cooling off of people’s love for God and man.

All these things, he said, would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress."—Matthew 24:3-12.


how right he was , but in amongst all those distressing things , there would be some GOODNEWS going on.

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14


and it is:) worldwide

 
A question for Thomas:


To anyone who's interested, Pope Benedict XVI offered some interesting words in an encyclical last November. It's a lengthy quote, but there is nothing I can cut ... it is worth the read, if one can do so with an open mind.
Click to expand...

So am I to understand, then, that it is possible to reduce, or altogether eliminate, one's time in purgatory if one should live by the grace of God and holy living while still here on earth, making whatever amends are necessary toward that end? Or will we still suffer from past infractions, though forgiveness is attained?

I'm kinda getting that much depends on our attitude toward God in that if we direct our desires toward Him, the effectual transformation can take place as we abide in the will of God and in His love, allowing Him to transform our lives into the image of Christ, i.e., the more Christlike we become, the less painful the purification process. Albeit, it is a cooperative effort.

Am I anywhere close?
 
Remember what I said, mee - this isn't the place for copy/pastes from other websites to make yor own arguments - use your own words please.

Otherwise Thomas may as well just paste in from the Catholic Encyclopedia, the thread become a copy/paste war, and that benefits nobody.

Thomas and others take the time to put things in their own words from their own opinion. Please try and do the same thanks - I don't want to have to issue another infraction.
 
Re: 1914 — does the bible teach it ?

Thomas said:
Please don't do this Mee — please don't use IO as a means of anti-Catholic propaganda.

If you can agree to such, I in return will cease from any critique of the persons, history and methods of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and confine myself purely to matters of theological dispute.

Thomas
Click to expand...

lmao!! A conspiracy of silence!! This is simply priceless :D

tao
 
Hi Dondi —

Dondi said:
So am I to understand, then, that it is possible to reduce, or altogether eliminate, one's time in purgatory if one should live by the grace of God and holy living while still here on earth, making whatever amends are necessary toward that end?
Click to expand...
Yes, I think so.

Dondi said:
Or will we still suffer from past infractions, though forgiveness is attained?
Click to expand...
I would say the degree of suffering is in proportion to the degree of unrecognised wrong ...

... assuming that no-one has a perfectly objective view of their own life and relationships that is 100% accurate and true, even the most saintly person can still be 'blind' to certain offences.

But I think it's not so much a matter of knowing the tally, chapter and verse, but just as you go on to say, it's a matter of one's disposition.

Dondi said:
I'm kinda getting that much depends on our attitude toward God in that if we direct our desires toward Him, the effectual transformation can take place as we abide in the will of God and in His love, allowing Him to transform our lives into the image of Christ, i.e., the more Christlike we become, the less painful the purification process. Albeit, it is a cooperative effort.
Yes! co-operative not in that we forgive our own sin, but that we are contrite, and make an effort to do better ...

I think we have to allow that there will always be 'unfinished business' that escapes our notice. But, if we are open, and as you say co-operative, then we do not resist this purification, and it might not be in any sense painful at all (beyond the 'did I do that? Oh dear!' of realisation) but rather than purgative, we experience it as 'curative' or 'restorative'

Dondi said:
Am I anywhere close?
Click to expand...
Same page, I think!

Thomas
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I think we have to allow that there will always be 'unfinished business' that escapes our notice. But, if we are open, and as you say co-operative, then we do not resist this purification, and it might not be in any sense painful at all (beyond the 'did I do that? Oh dear!' of realisation) but rather than purgative, we experience it as 'curative' or 'restorative'
Click to expand...

Even if we were able to avoid all the purgative changes, it would still be quite an overwhelming process as we transition from this life into the next. Just imagining that leap, I would think that we would need some kind of orientation to adjust for the change. Whether of not this involves a passage of time, it certainly involves a passage of realization and understanding of what is going on with us and our surroundings, not to mention a sudden encounter with the Almighty (think Isaiah).
 
Actually, what the Bible teaches about the soul conflicts with the teachings of purgatory and hellfire

The Bible often speaks of the death of souls. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die." (Ezekiel 18:4; compare the King James and Catholic Douay versions.)

According to the Bible, the dead are unconscious, unable to feel pain. "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

its best to stick to what the bible REALLY teaches:)
 
I said:
use your own words please.

quote]

the teaching that man possesses a separate, immortal soul did not originate with the Bible but with Greek philosophy. :)

And we all know what Jesus’ said to the religious leaders of his day:

"Adroitly you set aside the commandment of God in order to retain your tradition. . . . Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition." (Mark 7:6-13)


food for thought i would say ....... bible, or tradition



Also the apostle Paul resisted the pressure to assimilate either Greek philosophy or erroneous traditions into his teaching.


"Look out," he cautioned. "Perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men." (Colossians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23; 2:1-13)


it seems that the tradition of men has been given aurthority over what the bible REALLYteaches and it has misled many :)
Click to expand...
 
Hi Dondi —

Dondi said:
Even if we were able to avoid all the purgative changes, it would still be quite an overwhelming process as we transition from this life into the next.
Click to expand...
Oh indeed! In fact, part of the sickness that afflicts this 'modern world' of ours is that we expend huge amounts of effort and energy in the pursuit of fantasies, but you try talking of the one thing of which we are all absolutely certain — death — and you are about as welcome, to quote Billy Connolly, "as a fart in a spacesuit".

Dondi said:
Just imagining that leap, I would think that we would need some kind of orientation to adjust for the change. Whether of not this involves a passage of time, it certainly involves a passage of realization and understanding of what is going on with us and our surroundings, not to mention a sudden encounter with the Almighty (think Isaiah).
Click to expand...
Yep. And part of that orientation, I think, is a realisation and understanding of our past, our mortal history ... of what we were actually like, especially compared to our proper nature, and what that is like ... and that aspect is what purgatory is all about.

I think the pain is the 'hanging on' to that illusory self-image, to look back and cry "I didn't know, it's not my fault!" will not suffice.

Conversely, those who suffer for the love of Christ, and bear the abuse of the world for their beliefs, and even lose their lives because of them, will look on that face-to-face with Jesus as a blessed relief and a confirmation of everything they hoped for.

Thomas
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top