parousia

[mee]

Jehovah’s people of the 19th century correctly understood that the pa·rou·si´a of Christ would be an invisible one.



They had also come to an understanding that the end of the Gentile Times would occur in the autumn of 1914.

As spiritual enlightenment progressed, they later understood that Jesus Christ was enthroned in heaven as King of the Kingdom in that same year, 1914

Proverbs 4:18; Daniel 7:13, 14; Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:15.



and now things are well along and understanding is abundant Daniel 12;4


and Jesus as a reigning king is now directing a great global preaching work matthew 24;14 .
and the good thing about it is that it is GOODNEWS

 

[Thomas]

Jehovah’s people of the 19th century correctly understood that the pa·rou·si´a of Christ would be an invisible one.

Silly, everybody understood that!

They had also come to an understanding that the end of the Gentile Times would occur in the autumn of 1914 ... they later understood that Jesus Christ was enthroned in heaven as King of the Kingdom in that same year, 1914

This is your man-made tradition, not Scripture.

show me where Scripture says '1914'.

+++

Rather, Scripture says:
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark 16:19

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
Acts 2:33

"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
Acts 7:56

And Romans 8:34:
"Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

and again ... 2 Corinthians 6:7, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 1:13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2,

1 Peter 3:22:
"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

So when it comes to believing Scripture, which says that Jesus was at the right hand of the Father, or believing you, who says this didn't happen until 1,914 years later ... I believe Scripture.

Thomas

 

[mee]

Silly, everybody understood that!


This is your man-made tradition, not Scripture.

show me where Scripture says '1914'.

+++

Rather, Scripture says:
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark 16:19

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
Acts 2:33

"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
Acts 7:56

And Romans 8:34:
"Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

and again ... 2 Corinthians 6:7, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 1:13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2,

1 Peter 3:22:
"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

So when it comes to believing Scripture, which says that Jesus was at the right hand of the Father, or believing you, who says this didn't happen until 1,914 years later ... I believe Scripture.

Thomas

yes you are quite right to say that the bible informs us that Jesus went back to heaven to be at the right side of God , but from then on he had to wait until 1914 to recieve his kingship DANIEL 7;13-14


He had waited for a long while at God’s right hand for that time to come for him to be installed as reigning King. in 1914 Now his waiting period is over!

Hebrews 10:12, 13: "This man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on AWAITING until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet." This time of waiting ended years ago.

In the year 1914, at the end of what Jesus Christ called "the times of the Gentiles" or "the appointed times of the nations." He prophesied that the city of Jerusalem of his day would be destroyed and would continue to be trampled on by the Gentile nations until the end of those Gentile times .




yes 1914 was the time he recieved his kingship ,which was the end of the Gentile times
(Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.


So yes as you brought out ,Jesus was at the right hand side of God after going back to heaven ,but there was a waiting time for him before he recieved his kingship, and now we are well along into bible prophecy and chronology, and since 1914 its all been happening ,

 

[mee]

pa·rou·si´a means "presence."
The Greek word pa·rou·si´a literally means a "being alongside"

Jesus’ presence in kingly power began in 1914


In spite of the ruin caused by two world wars, the enthroned King, Christ Jesus, has actively participated in forging a new nation of people—a people for Jehovah’s name "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues."


Christ’s active presence has stimulated a worldwide preaching and teaching program that has touched the hearts of millions of rightly disposed individuals.

They have been moved to take their stand on the side of Jehovah’s Kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus.—Revelation 7:9, 10. mee is one of them
Jesus is a reigning king


In the face of increasing daily evidence that the multifaceted sign of Christ’s presence is being fulfilled, it is evident to alert Christians that we are facing the end of an epoch.


Now is the time to "pay more than the usual attention" to the enthroned King, Christ Jesus. (Hebrews 2:1)


He admonishes us: "Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."—Luke 21:36.


Christians were to watch for the sign of Christ’s presence (Greek, pa·rou·si´a, translated "coming" in many versions of the Bible). Why?

Because this would mean that the Kingdom of God, their own deliverance and the end of "the world," or present wicked "system of things," would be near.


but sad to say many in christendom have lost their focus

Christendom’s churches have abandoned the Christian watchfulness that Jesus ordered his disciples never to neglect. and no wonder ,they have shifted the focus from earth to heaven instead.


thats what bringing Greek phylosphy into the congregations has done , the teaching of the IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL is just one of the things that has made them lose their focus.


why think about a paradise earth when they teach that all are going to heaven instead

 

[Thomas]

yes you are quite right to say that the bible informs us that Jesus went back to heaven to be at the right side of God , but from then on he had to wait until 1914 to recieve his kingship DANIEL 7;13-14

I disagree, I think this is your own interpretation of Scripture because you fail to understand the text — 'sitting at the right hand of God' implies authority, so there is no suggestion of having to wait for anything.

It is understandable that people look into Scripture to discern the future — understandable, but it is wrong. Scripture expressly forbids magic, and using Scripture as a means of divination is using it for purposes of magic.

It is also understandable that people, when they discern dates, places, times, etc., will come up with notions that have meaning for them. Where would the JWs be if the 'magical date' was 1419, or 4191, or 9114? Nowhere ... so your founders had to came up with a date that was 'within reach' as it were, a date that was revised on more than one occasion.

As for the dates, one can manipulate Scripture to arrive at any date you like, as has been proven in test conditions. So if I picked a different set of figures from Scripture, but used your methods of determining a date, and by so doing arrived at my birthdate ... what would that tell you about me?

And how can you say I am wrong and you are right, when we use the same text and the same method?

You have to admit it, Mee, you believe that you have the proper interpretation of the text, because men told you so.

The same as me.

The only difference is, my people don't have to alter the text and insert words to make it 'make sense', when for a couple of thousand years, saints and sages had no problem with Scripture at all.

My people don't haven't changed the teaching that the Apostles (who wrote the text) gave to them.

Whilst there is no such thing as a 'correct' interpretation of Scripture, and whilst new and revised versions, informed by scholarship, are being published all the time, your translation is now showing its age, and its underskirts ... in some places it is good, and in others it is bad ... and when it's bad, you can see why ...

Hebrews 10:12, 13: "This man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on AWAITING until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet." This time of waiting ended years ago.

The time ended 2,000 years ago. Jesus is not AWAITING his coronation, is He? The text clearly says he is awaiting the Judgement of the World.

You see ... you don't even understand the plain text.

Thomas

 

[Penguin]

Arghhhh it's the date again! 1914! LOL

Ding Ding, round 3! I'll put a tenner on Thomas.

Love it LOL

 

[Thomas]

My dear Penguin ...

Part of me would love to ... if only 'cos Mee makes me look at Scripture. But really, I must concentrate on my studies!

But I want you to know, with all my heart, that when Global Warming really kicks in, there'll always be a place for you in our fridge.

Thomas

 

[Marsh]

Ok, can somebody please explain to me where the date 1914 comes from-- WITHOUT just referring to the book of Daniel or Revelation and assuming that everyone knows what they're talking about? Because here's the thing, Mee: you're asking everyone to assume that this date is scriptural insofar as it can (I assume) be derived from the book of Daniel without explaining why.

 

[Penguin]

My dear Penguin ...

Part of me would love to ... if only 'cos Mee makes me look at Scripture. But really, I must concentrate on my studies!

But I want you to know, with all my heart, that when Global Warming really kicks in, there'll always be a place for you in our fridge.

Thomas

I'm sure it would be most comfortable in your fridge and I couldn't think of a better person who's fridge I'd like to be stuffed in! (apart from my mum's of course!) Just make sure you don't slam the door on me head please

 

[Penguin]

Ok, can somebody please explain to me where the date 1914 comes from-- WITHOUT just referring to the book of Daniel or Revelation and assuming that everyone knows what they're talking about? Because here's the thing, Mee: you're asking everyone to assume that this date is scriptural insofar as it can (I assume) be derived from the book of Daniel without explaining why.

I asked the same question awhile ago.

Have a look here:-

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/1914-a-significant-year-in-4993.html

 

[mee]

Ok, can somebody please explain to me where the date 1914 comes from-- WITHOUT just referring to the book of Daniel or Revelation and assuming that everyone knows what they're talking about? Because here's the thing, Mee: you're asking everyone to assume that this date is scriptural insofar as it can (I assume) be derived from the book of Daniel without explaining why.

Years in advance Bible scholars realized that 1914 was to be a year of great significance.

Bible chronology specifically points to that year, and careful students of God’s Word knew that.

They expected great changes to take place, and the facts confirm that 1914 was, indeed, a marked year.



but as always many ridicule the truth of the bible ,



As far back as 1876, Jehovah’s Witnesses realized that Bible prophecy marked the year 1914 C.E.
as a time when major events would take place that would have far-reaching effects on human affairs. They gave the reason for this fact wide publicity.


but as always christendom has ridiculed those into bible truth ,
and then christendoms flocks are kept away from the GOODNEWS , but no worries Jesus sheep hear his voice and the GOODNEWS is revealed to them , and then they join the great crowd from all nations REVELATION 7;9-10

After going on record that the Bible pointed to 1914, Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wait for several decades before they saw the outcome.

Early in 1914 the peacefulness of the world made it appear to many that nothing was going to happen.

But before the summer was over, the Witnesses’ confidence was justified when the world plunged into a war that was without precedent.

yes 1914 was the START of the end, and the signs that Jesus foretold are all happening since 1914.
The appearance of features of "the sign" did not mean that God’s Kingdom would immediately sweep wickedness from the earth.

As Jesus foretold, "all these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Others were to follow.

and NOW we are well along into bible prophecy and chronology, and we have been living in the time of the end since 1914.


but make no mistake about it ,there is much ridiculing going on in the world to bible truth.
And make no mistake about it, the ridicule is from those who CLAIM to represent the God of the bible






. Nothing changes for those into bible truth

 

[mee]

Arghhhh it's the date again! 1914! LOL

Ding Ding, round 3! I'll put a tenner on Thomas.

Love it LOL

1914 marked the time when Christ began to rule as King in God’s heavenly government DANIEL 2;44 DANIEL 7;13-14


yes 1914 was the time that the HEAVENLY kingdom was set up and established ,and Jesus recieved his legal right to kingship
Daniel 2;44
Ezekiel 21:26, 27

notice that in Daniel 2;44 it says, IN THE DAYS OF THOSE KINGS.yes while human goverments are still ruling , that HEAVENLY kingdom goverment was BORN and it is all in the book of REVELATION in chapter12 ;4-5 the book of revelation uses symbolic words to tell us about the birth of GODS KINGDOM , the male child that has been born to Gods woman , is GODS KINGDOM and she gave birth in 1914 but as we can see that ageold dragon(satan the devil) is ready to be in opposition , but no worries Gods kingdom has Gods protection . but anyone who upholds that kingdom down here on the earth will have great opposition .

and JEHOVAHS WITNESSES know all about that opposition in more ways than one

And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. revelation 12;4-5​

 

[mee]

I asked the same question awhile ago.

Have a look here:-

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/1914-a-significant-year-in-4993.html

nice one that saved mee a job

 

[mee]

My dear Penguin ...

if only 'cos Mee makes me look at Scripture.



Thomas

keeping awake to bible prophecy and chronology is good , its when we fall asleep to it that we end up in spiritual darkness. with no enlightenment at all.


thats what happened to many who fell asleep .



its good to be alert to what the bible REALLY teaches

 

[mee]

I disagree, I think this is your own interpretation of Scripture because you fail to understand the text

Thomas

make no mistake about it, 1914 is a very significant date when it comes to bible prophecy and chronology.


and we have been living since 1914 in the parousia, or presence of the son of man .

and 1914 was the START of the end , its all happening in this time of the end .
The expressions "the time of the end" and "the appointed time of the end" appear six times in the book of Daniel. (Daniel 8:17, 19; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9)


They pertain to "the last days" foretold by the apostle Paul. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Jesus Christ referred to this period as his "presence" as enthroned King in heaven.Matthew 24:37-39.

Daniel 12:4 states: "As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant."


yes true knowledge is abundant


Much of what Daniel wrote was made secret and sealed up to human understanding for centuries.


But what about today, not any more TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS ABUNDANT , over the years there has been much roving around the bible and NOW
it is no longer sealed up , we are living in the time of the end and
TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS OUT THERE.


but the question is .......do we want it?

 

[mee]

Scripture expressly forbids magic,

Thomas

very true , we dont need magic when Jehovah is the revealer of secrets.
"There exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets."—DANIEL 2:28.


The prophet Daniel stated that "God . . . is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known . . . what is to occur in the final part of the days." (Dan. 2:28)

What a privilege it is to be living at the close of that foretold period and to understand the divine secrets Jehovah is now making known!



its all happening in this time of the end and it is very gooooood

 

[Thomas]

its good to be alert to what the bible REALLY teaches

Sorry, Mee — but I believe the Bible teaches man about God, about himself, and about Salvation ... 'prophecy' to me means the Voice of God on the tongue of the Prophet, instructing man on how he should conduct himself in light of the Covenant.

Your type of prophecy, which is divination, is the practice of magic, discerning from the words of the prophet 'secret messages', forbidden by Scripture and something entirely of your own invention.

And in short, so what?

So what if the 'day' was the Day of the Ascension, or it was 1914, 1419, or tomorrow, or next year, ten years time, a thousand years time? What difference does knowing that make to me, here, and now?

None.

Getting the 'tip-off' that God's on his way, and putting on a show, which implies if he wasn't, you wouldn't bother, which is how JWs sell their deal, it seems to me ... doesn't fool anyone, least of all God, so I suggest your whole premise is false.

I could crash my bike tomorrow, I could pass gently in my sleep (God willing), I could be knocked down and killed by a drunk ... in which case knowing that 1914 is a significant date is absolutely no use whatsoever.

What matters is the knowledge that I am loved as I love. That's all that matters.

In short, what you preach is of no consequence ... what matters is the promise of Salvation offered to man through Scripture ... not speculating on when this or that might happen, and selling the Bible as an insurance policy, or a book of secret messages.

Thomas

 

[mee]

Sorry, Mee — but I believe the Bible teaches man about God, about himself, and about Salvation ... 'prophecy' to me means the Voice of God on the tongue of the Prophet, instructing man on how he should conduct himself in light of the Covenant.

Your type of prophecy, which is divination, is the practice of magic, discerning from the words of the prophet 'secret messages', forbidden by Scripture and something entirely of your own invention.

And in short, so what?

So what if the 'day' was the Day of the Ascension, or it was 1914, 1419, or tomorrow, or next year, ten years time, a thousand years time? What difference does knowing that make to me, here, and now?

None.

Getting the 'tip-off' that God's on his way, and putting on a show, which implies if he wasn't, you wouldn't bother, which is how JWs sell their deal, it seems to me ... doesn't fool anyone, least of all God, so I suggest your whole premise is false.

I could crash my bike tomorrow, I could pass gently in my sleep (God willing), I could be knocked down and killed by a drunk ... in which case knowing that 1914 is a significant date is absolutely no use whatsoever.

What matters is the knowledge that I am loved as I love. That's all that matters.

In short, what you preach is of no consequence ... what matters is the promise of Salvation offered to man through Scripture ... not speculating on when this or that might happen, and selling the Bible as an insurance policy, or a book of secret messages.

Thomas

As all bible students are aware, they know that the bible is a book of prophecy, and those prophecies always come true regardless of weather people take note or not.



and yes as you mentioned ,many say that the GOODNEWS is of no consequence.

and there is much ridicule to bible truth



For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers
(Lit., "players in sport [of mocking].")
with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying:
"Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning."
2 peter 3; 3-4

Christ’s Presence (Parousia)
Mt 24:3—Gr., τὸ σημει̃ον τη̃ς ση̃ς παρουσίας​

 

[Marsh]

nice one that saved mee a job

As luck should have it, I found myself reading a book on The Revelation of Jesus Christ that one of my friends, who is a Jehovah's Witness, gave to me to study. From what I read, the calculation is based on there being "seven times" between the Babylonian captivity (607 BC) and the establishment of Jesus' kingdom (1914). Fair enough. However, based on that reasoning doesn't that put the end of all things about twelve-hundred years from now? Consider Daniel's vision of the fourth beast, who is going to rule over the saints for a time, times, and half a time, which is 1260 days. If a year is assigned to every day in the calculation where we get 1914, then shouldn't we assign a day to a year in this case as well? The end result being that Jesus isn't due to return until at least 3174, assuming that the fourth beast has already come, and I don't think it has yet...

Marsh

 

[mee]

As luck should have it, I found myself reading a book on The Revelation of Jesus Christ that one of my friends, who is a Jehovah's Witness, gave to me to study. From what I read, the calculation is based on there being "seven times" between the Babylonian captivity (607 BC) and the establishment of Jesus' kingdom (1914). Fair enough. However, based on that reasoning doesn't that put the end of all things about twelve-hundred years from now? Consider Daniel's vision of the fourth beast, who is going to rule over the saints for a time, times, and half a time, which is 1260 days. If a year is assigned to every day in the calculation where we get 1914, then shouldn't we assign a day to a year in this case as well? The end result being that Jesus isn't due to return until at least 3174, assuming that the fourth beast has already come, and I don't think it has yet...

Marsh

Are you refering to the fourth beast in Daniel 7, if so that was the roman empire , but now things have moved along , and we are in the time of the end , if you are into Daniel and you see your friend and ask for the book DANIELS PROPHECY. it goes into what the beasts are and what they are NOW , and especially how that SMALL HORN did harass continually the holy ones.

"I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them." (Daniel 7:21)


Regarding this "horn," or king, God’s angel foretold: "He will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One.

And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time." (Daniel 7:25)

How and when was this part of the prophecy fulfilled? its all in that book about it all.



"The holy ones" persecuted by the "small" horn—the Anglo-American World Power—are Jesus’ spirit-anointed followers on earth.


For years before World War I, the remnant of these anointed ones publicly warned that 1914 would see the conclusion of "the appointed times of the nations." (Luke 21:24)


When war broke out in that year, it was evident that the "small" horn had ignored this warning, for it persisted in harassing the anointed "holy ones." The Anglo-American World Power even opposed their efforts to carry out Jehovah’s requirement (or, "law") that the good news of the Kingdom be preached worldwide by his witnesses. (Matthew 24:14)


Thus the "small" horn attempted "to change times and law."