Demons/Daimons

Pathless

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demon definition | Dictionary.com

Interestingly enough, the word demon has some roots in the Greek "daimon" or "daemon." In dictionaries, the word is also associated with "genius," which is associated with "jinn," "djinn," and "genie." I have it from c0de in another thread on these forums that in Islam, demons are (often?) referred to as jinn. And thus we come around in a circle.

genius definition | Dictionary.com

Further edifying exposition on the origin and meaning of the word "demon" can be found in Barbara Walker's excellent tome, The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets.

A case can be made that the Christian idea of a demon as an evil spirit, and in tandem with this the Islamic idea of a jinn as an evil spirit, are at best misguided and at worst corrupted.

Wikipedia also offers some clarification here: Daemon (mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The Venerable Wikipedia said:
dæmon, are Latinized spellings of the Greek δαίμων (daimôn),[1] used purposely today to distinguish the daemons of Ancient Greek religion, good or malevolent "supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as inferior divinities and ghosts of dead heroes" (see Plato's Symposium), from the Judeo-Christian usage demon, a malignant spirit that can seduce, afflict, or possess humans. In Hesiod's Theogony, Phaëton becomes a daimon, de-materialized,[2] but the ills of mankind released by Pandora are keres not daimones. Hesiod connects the daimones of the deceased great and good in relating how the men of the Golden Age were transmuted into daimones by the will of Zeus, to serve as ineffable guardians of mortals, whom they might serve by their benevolence.[3] In similar ways, the daimon of a venerated hero or a founder figure, located in one place by the construction of a shrine rather than left unburied to wander, would confer good fortune and protection on those who stopped to offer respect. Daemones were not considered evil.

So in pagan myth, an individual can undergo an apotheosis, ascending to the level of a demigod or even god. This is what the word "daemon" originally meant.

Quoting from Walker's Encyclopedia, we have:

Barbara Walker said:
The medieval concept of the demon evolved from Christians' blanket condemnation of all pagan daimones, though they continued to believe implicitly in their existence. Demons were usually considered messengers and assistants of a single Devil, in the same relationship to him as angels to God.



Again though, the original idea of "daemon" would include beings who may be considered angelic. "Daemon" simply meant a spirit or a force, which could be either benevolent or malign. As a term, it was apparently neutral.
 
I love this subject.


Interestingly enough, the word demon has some roots in the Greek "daimon" or "daemon." In dictionaries, the word is also associated with "genius," which is associated with "jinn," "djinn," and "genie." I have it from c0de in another thread on these forums that in Islam, demons are (often?) referred to as jinn. And thus we come around in a circle.
Yes, as I have found out, in Arabic the word "Jinn" can be used in many different ways, one of which is to refer to a person of unusually sharp intelligence.


A case can be made that the Christian idea of a demon as an evil spirit, and in tandem with this the Islamic idea of a jinn as an evil spirit, are at best misguided and at worst corrupted.
Well, in Islam, the Jinn are not actually "evil spirits"... Because the concept of "demon" is not automatically associated with good or bad, at least in the Islamic perspective. Basically, the supernatural significance behind the word "jinn" is deeper then that. According to the Quran, God made three types of beings (sentient/intelligent beings that is).

He made man from clay, specifically the clay of this world. So we are carbon based, and I believe evolved through natural selection, in the Darwinian way, most Muslims disagree though, but I think the Quran actually does not contradict evolution at all, and actually supports it, but that is another thread entirely.

But before man was created, God had already made two other beings. The Angels, and the Jinn. Now in the Quran it is not stated what the Angels are made out of, although a commonly held belief is that they were made out of "nur" or light, in Arabic. But it is stated what the Jinn were made out of: Fire. An intensely hot, but smokeless flame, I think are the exact words used.

Getting back to the original point, these creatures, the Jinn, are not said to be "evil spirits" instead they are considered to be just that, spirits. Some are good, some are evil. They live on a plane/dimension higher then us, but, I think, lower then the Angels. So that they can see and observe the world of man, but man can not see or observe their world. This is very interesting if you consider how higher dimensions in physics and mathematics work:

YouTube - Imagining the Tenth Dimension - Rob Bryanton [FULL CLIP]

A being in dimension 5, will be able to observe the beings of dimension 4, and that being will be able to observe the world of dimension 3. However, the beings of the lower dimensions can not observe higher planes of existence.

Speaking specifically of the Jinn, their descriptions are lacking. Satan/Lucifer is said to be a Jinn. However, some Muslims also think that he was, or is an angel. But since the Quran specifically calls Satan a Jinn, that could also mean that he used to be an angel, before he was a Jinn, because he is mentioned along with the Angels (when they were told to bow down to man).

Another thing that must be considered is the metaphorical dimension. Jinn, could also be a label assigned to the rebellious. The fiery nature of the jinn, is also a label that can be used against all rebellious creatures. Man, or whatever, included. In this way, the word Jinn in the Quran is also sometimes applied to the leaders of men, who incite others to evil by charisma or bravado etc.

Personally, I do think that Angels, Jinn, and Men are three separate intelligent beings, but I also believe the word "jinn" can be applied to men and this other fiery class of creatures. But not to Angels, as I believe Angels are on a higher plane then both men and jinns. As for satan, I believe that he was never an angel. The only reason he was mentioned along with the Angels is because when the Angels were asked to bow down to man, that itself was a command for all the creatures in that dimension, and lower, to bow down to man. So jinns, who were in a lower dimension, were naturally included in that command.

Again though, the original idea of "daemon" would include beings who may be considered angelic. "Daemon" simply meant a spirit or a force, which could be either benevolent or malign. As a term, it was apparently neutral.
This definition is actually more in keeping with the Arabic definition of the word "Jinn".
 
Personally for me... everything I believe about the hosts of heaven and hell come from the bible. Starting from Genesis and ending in Revelation the bible is very clear that they exist and their jobs so to speak.. and the methods used.. warnings and promies in regards to them. So I cannot go to other references that may say differently than the bible because it would not be trustworthy to me. I know that the spiritual realm exists and according to the bible it is more real than this existance we live now. There is a lot more out there than we can see with our naked eye.. thats for sure.. lol
 
Interesting thread.

Actually, what I have gleaned from the Bible with the help of a Strong's Concordance coincides nicely with what cOde is saying. Pathless is also correct, in that "genius" comes from the same or similar root, and suggests an "ethereal" whisper in the ear of the so-called "genius."

"Angel" is a neutral term, meaning messenger. Fallen angels, who also come with the tag "demon," "daemon," "daimon," and "devil" are essentially / made of the same stuff as *good* angels. I kinda like cOde's description of different orders of angels being made of fire and light, the Bible corresponds pretty closely; "beware, even Satan can present himself as an angel of Light" and I seem to recall the archangel Michael as being referred to as a being of fire. The Bible describes how Satan hoodwinked a third of the angels into following him into his apostacy.
 
I kinda like cOde's description of different orders of angels being made of fire and light,.


Hey Juantoo,

Well, I actually do not know what Angels are made of, because the Quran
doesn't really say. The only description of with regards to the creation of
intelligent beings is of the Jinn and Men. Here are 3 different translations of
the same verse:


Chapter 15, Verse 27
YUSUFALI: And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
PICKTHAL: And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire.
SHAKIR: And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.


Compare this with the 3 different translations of the words used to
describe the creation of man:

15:28
YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered,
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.



There is a also a verse which makes it reasonably clear that
the word "jinn" is applied to men as well:


72:6
YUSUFALI: 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
PICKTHAL: And indeed (O Muhammad) individuals of humankind used to invoke the protection of individuals of the jinn, so that they increased them in revolt against Allah);
SHAKIR: And that persons from among men used to seek refuge with persons from among jinn, so they increased them in wrongdoing:


In Arabic, the word "jinn" can be applied to not just people of sharp intelligence, but also to foreigners, outsiders etc. So for example, when King Salomon (PBUH) and his kingdom is described in the Quran, he is said to have in his court and army people from among the jinn. Now some Muslims actually believe in the literal translation and think that he actually controlled demons. What is more likely is that he had foreigners and outsiders as part of his army. People from empires that he had either defeated or had immigrated to his kingdom. The same description also says that King Solomon was the first to have control of birds, and some Muslims actually think he could talk to birds. What is more likely was that King Solomon was able to utilize birds to deliver messages between his armies, so messenger pigeons.

What is important here is to note the different in understanding the words of scripture. As different people take away a different meaning, from the same word. Both could be right, only God really knows. So for example, the words "intensely hot fire" can be taken to mean that these jinn are actually created from fire, or it could be signifying their fiery or rebellious nature. What is also important to note is that the two interpretations are not mutually exclusive. So the ethereal beings called the "jinn" could actually be created of fire, while their human counterparts could have that same nature applied to them metaphorically.

If we follow this line of thinking, the words describing the creation of men also takes on a new significance. "Black mud fashioned into shape" can be taken to signify the nature of men. Also, the "fashioned into shape" could also be signifying evolution, even natural selection employed in the evolution proccess. The "mud" or "clay" that man is made of could mean that unlike the jinn, our nature is more humble, and this is why humility is stressed in scripture. It could also signify man's inherent weaknesses to his earthly desires. But at the same time, it could also hint at our inherent superiority over the jinn, as clay (carbon) is one of only two substances which can withstand extremely high temperatures. The other being iron, which comes from carbon.

Let me give you an example, which might seem irrelevant at first, but think about its significance as a "sign". You know that in a lot of stars, the proccess of nuclear fusion that takes place at the core is what generates the heat and light. Well, near the end of the stars life, the helium starts running short, and because of this the temperature of the core increases (the same concept when you reduce the amount of air in an open flame, it will actually burn hotter and "burn itself out"). Because of the increasing temperature, and the higher pressure, the core starts a proccess where the helium begins to be converted into another element, to generate more fuel and keep the star going. But eventually that element changes into another element, and then another and another. During these stages, the color of the sun actually changes, from red, to blue to white. (I think that is the right order). Eventually, the final element that the core produces is carbon. By this time, the sun is burning hotter and the the force of gravity is stronger then ever before. But the proccess stops nonetheless, because carbon can not be broken down any further, by stars the size of our sun. So sometimes, what you have left with, is big giant diamond, the size of our planet just floating in space! Only the largest stars can begin the proccess of carbon burning and this process leads to the star destroying itself and either becoming a nebula or a black hole. This all might seem irrelevant, but think about it. This serves as the ultimate comparison between the qualities of fire, and the quality of mud/clay/carbon.

Satan refused to recognize man's superiority because man was made out of carbon/clay. Satan himself was made out of fire. He thought that his make was superior, more noble, then humble clay. In a way, we can see his point. It would be much cooler to be made out of fire then mud right? Obviously! But that is the whole point. Satan only saw the superficial reality. In that way, all evil persons can only see the superficial in reality, and are blind to the spiritual elements. The significance of man's make, and his place above the angels and the jinn rested, metaphorically, in his creation from mud/clay/carbon. As ultimately, it is the strongest element, that when pushed further can only break down into a diamond, or iron (in the case of very massive stars) and in either case will result in that star's (or fire's) own destruction. Metaphorically, this can mean that man is stronger then the jinn. But it also signifies man's inherent humility, because after all... mud and carbon, are just... well... not fire. And fire, is just so much cooler! (lol). And that is an indication that man needs to be humble before God. As we might be superior to many of God's creation, but ultimately, God created us of nothing other then simple mud.

Also, by the way, as for the Angels,: thier description, unlike "men" or "jinn" is non-neutral, according to the Quran. The Angels are only associated with perfect submission to God's will. While the Jinn and Men can rebel, or disobey (in so far as they are allowed to by God). Some think that this does not mean that angels can't disobey, but if they do, they will "fall". This is the Christian or biblical view at least. The Quran is silent on the issue altogether. According to the Quran, there was no "war in heaven". God just told Satan to get out "of this state", and satan begged God for respite and time to lead men astray, and God agreed to let satan tempt man, until Judgment Day, as a test for men. But even then, God said that satan would have no power over men who choose to follow God.
 
Wow. You really believe this stuff?

Hang on a sec... while I get some popcorn and settle in.

Nuthin' good on TV anyway.
 
They live on a plane/dimension higher then us, but, I think, lower then the Angels. So that they can see and observe the world of man, but man can not see or observe their world.

Since this is a matter of speculation, as you display here, how can this topic be a spiritual one and not merely a psychological one? True spiritual experiences are absolute and leave no room for speculation.

I have no problem with angles, demons or djinni, but even Kabala tells us that illumination through communication with spirits must be "that which is received." There is no reason to grasp. Some of the best experiences may even come about from having friendly arguments with them or even being smart-allecky with them when one just wants to be alone with God.
 
Hello EC


I have no problem with angles, demons or djinni, but even Kabala tells us that illumination through communication with spirits must be "that which is received."

I actually agree with this. Angels were used to communicate with prophets.
As for communication between men and demons, well... I am sure there
different people have different theories on on that.

Since this is a matter of speculation, as you display here, how can this topic be a spiritual one and not merely a psychological one?

Why would it be a psychological one?


True spiritual experiences are absolute and leave no room for speculation.

Can you give an example of such an experience?
 
It would be merely a psycholocial one if it involved demons since, if they even exist, they are not spiritual beings and can only rely on false impressions.

Can you give an example of such an experience?

One not involving pure speculation, maybes and what-ifs. Its okay to take a stand you know.
 
Interesting - I'd been labouring under the impression that the root word for daemon was based from "guardian" but don't have time to look this up. If true, I always took it that the purpose of a daemon was not to molest humanity without cause, but instead prevent certain boundaries from being broken?
 
Hello EC




I actually agree with this. Angels were used to communicate with prophets.
As for communication between men and demons, well... I am sure there
different people have different theories on on that.



Why would it be a psychological one?

Can you give an example of such an experience?

Hi cOde

Good topic. Cosmology helps with appreciating jinn from the hierarchal spiritual, psychic, and physical planes. If a person defines the demonic in Man as an attribute that creates an exaggerated quality that keeps Man out of balance and tied to the earth it makes sense that genius while appreciated on our level as an attribute, could be a demonic exaggeration. Perhaps this is why chess was banned in certain Islamic countries since it created an attractive though objectively meaningless obsession.

I'll have to think further on this since it coincides with my path to an extent as part of the conscious universe. For those not interested and thinking the whole idea absurd, you can always offer them a jinn and tonic which will keep everyone happy. :)
 
EC + Nick



Hey EC

....It would be merely a psycholocial one if it involved demons since, if they even exist, they are not spiritual beings and can only rely on false impressions.

But I never said jinns/demons were "spiritual beings".
I just hypothesized that they might exist in a different dimension.

One not involving pure speculation, maybes and what-ifs.
.... For example?



HEy Nick

If a person defines the demonic in Man as an attribute that creates an exaggerated quality that keeps Man out of balance and tied to the earth it makes sense that genius while appreciated on our level as an attribute, could be a demonic exaggeration.
hmmm... yea. I think that can be true in some cases.
I guess it depends on how a person uses his "genius"...
 
Cosmology helps with appreciating jinn from the hierarchal spiritual, psychic, and physical planes. If a person defines the demonic in Man as an attribute that creates an exaggerated quality that keeps Man out of balance and tied to the earth it makes sense that genius while appreciated on our level as an attribute, could be a demonic exaggeration.

Interesting, Nick. In my own cosmology, I equate balance with having a healthy connection with the Earth. To me, to become too "spiritual" in the sense of some cosmic aether or heavenly abode is actually to become unbalanced. Spirit resides in the Earth as much as anywhere else, and it's my opinion that since we as humans are made of Earth-stuff, that element is also largely where our spirits are rooted. In this way, spirituality is of the Earth, not of some Heavenly Abode in outer space.

It's also interesting to reflect on how this apparent dichotomy plays into perceptions of witches and pagans as dabbling with "demonic" forces. I think that historic witches, pagans, and other "primitives" were actually revering the Earth and utilizing an experiential knowledge of local foods, animals, plants, and minerals, which were also seen as imbued with a certain divinity--which also resides in the human soul. This healthy respect for and reciprocal approach towards nature and life didn't jive with the monotheistic concept of One God, somewhere Out There in the Heavenly Above/Abode, lording it over His Creation, and so the politics of those monotheistic religions developed dogmas and attitudes of extermination towards these other ways of perception, which they dubbed "demonic," "pagan," "satanic," etc.

:)
 
Code,

As you seem to agree already, a true experience with a angel would not involve the same degree of speculation as a so-called experience with a demon or djinn (which would always inherently be pure speculation). But since such experiences would always be personal, how can it be completely conveyed to others? I know there's value in sharing experiences when its at the right time, but why are you so adamant about me providing an example?
 
Interesting, Nick. In my own cosmology, I equate balance with having a healthy connection with the Earth. To me, to become too "spiritual" in the sense of some cosmic aether or heavenly abode is actually to become unbalanced. Spirit resides in the Earth as much as anywhere else, and it's my opinion that since we as humans are made of Earth-stuff, that element is also largely where our spirits are rooted. In this way, spirituality is of the Earth, not of some Heavenly Abode in outer space.

It's also interesting to reflect on how this apparent dichotomy plays into perceptions of witches and pagans as dabbling with "demonic" forces. I think that historic witches, pagans, and other "primitives" were actually revering the Earth and utilizing an experiential knowledge of local foods, animals, plants, and minerals, which were also seen as imbued with a certain divinity--which also resides in the human soul. This healthy respect for and reciprocal approach towards nature and life didn't jive with the monotheistic concept of One God, somewhere Out There in the Heavenly Above/Abode, lording it over His Creation, and so the politics of those monotheistic religions developed dogmas and attitudes of extermination towards these other ways of perception, which they dubbed "demonic," "pagan," "satanic," etc.

:)

That's pretty astute Pathless.
 
Interesting, Nick. In my own cosmology, I equate balance with having a healthy connection with the Earth. To me, to become too "spiritual" in the sense of some cosmic aether or heavenly abode is actually to become unbalanced. Spirit resides in the Earth as much as anywhere else, and it's my opinion that since we as humans are made of Earth-stuff, that element is also largely where our spirits are rooted. In this way, spirituality is of the Earth, not of some Heavenly Abode in outer space.

It's also interesting to reflect on how this apparent dichotomy plays into perceptions of witches and pagans as dabbling with "demonic" forces. I think that historic witches, pagans, and other "primitives" were actually revering the Earth and utilizing an experiential knowledge of local foods, animals, plants, and minerals, which were also seen as imbued with a certain divinity--which also resides in the human soul. This healthy respect for and reciprocal approach towards nature and life didn't jive with the monotheistic concept of One God, somewhere Out There in the Heavenly Above/Abode, lording it over His Creation, and so the politics of those monotheistic religions developed dogmas and attitudes of extermination towards these other ways of perception, which they dubbed "demonic," "pagan," "satanic," etc.

:)

High Path

I would agree with you that all this new age imagination about la la land leads to becoming unbalanced. Though everything contains the life force, what we call spirituality is actually consciousness.

As I've come to understand it, the universe functions both consciously and mechanically. In the absence of consciousness, mechanical laws take its place. Man is somewhere between conscious influences and mechanical influences and to be balanced is to unite them.

If he becomes conscious of his place, he could take the position described in the gospel of Thomas:

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

This midpoint or the beginning of a soul is what is capable of self knowledge of our mechanical earthly condition and what can be seen and helped from above to become its potential.

Rudolph Steiner said that man is in-between Lucifer and Ahriman. Lucifer tempts us into la la land and Ahriman into materialism. A lot of New Age teaching is really Luciferic and a lot of our increased materialism is Ahrimanic. The Christ influence is what allows us to become ourselves and withstand the imaginary attractions of these two strong influences.

Knowledge of the interactions of forces and how to control them is the essence of magick. Acquired conscious perspective which is the goal of the great traditions enables a person to put knowledge into a hierarchal conscious perspective so a developed person can use it rather then have it use them.

Christianity and magick are complimentary. The caution we read in the Bible refers to the effect on people governed by imagination. Then it is harmful. But for a Christian, it can be a tool.
 
It is also interesting to me to consider this question of balance from the perspective of the "Parable of the Talents:

Matthew 25:

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'
23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

A talent is an indication of human potential. If it encourages us to develop other talents so as to become balanced at a higher level, it serves universal purpose. However if we have one talent and build our lives around it, society loves us but eventually we lose everything from becoming so drastically out of balance. Such a talent can become a demonic obsession.
 
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