The absolute knowledge of the absolute God is impossible

Discussion in 'Hare Krishna' started by dattaswami, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. dattaswami

    dattaswami Interfaith Forums

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    The absolute knowledge of the absolute God is impossible


    The absolute knowledge of the absolute God is impossible because the absolute God is unimaginable. The absolute God comes in human form to give you the experience of His existence, in absence of which, you may deny the very existence of the absolute God and may become atheist (Astityeva….Veda). The identification of the human form in which the absolute God exists is the knowledge of God (Brahma Jnanam or Brahma Vidya).

    The experience of the existence of the absolute God does not reveal any trace of the nature of the absolute God and hence God is always unimaginable. The only information about the absolute God is that God exists. “Aum Tat Sat” means that God exists and no more information about God is available. The word Tat means that God is beyond your imagination. The word Aum denotes that God is the creator, ruler and destroyer of this world. These three adjectives indicate the works (Creation, rule and destruction) of God only and not the nature of the God. This is called as the information about the existence only (Sanmatra vada). God comes in human form, which is characterized by the awareness or chit.

    At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

    Anil Antony
     
  2. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    There is lot we can know about God and of His nature since we were created in His image.

    For instance what was the motivation of God to create us ?

    This can be explained,
     
  3. Joedjr

    Joedjr A Sometimes Member

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    Hi soleil10
    Interesting, care to go on?
    Joe
     
  4. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    What Was God’s Fundamental Motivation For Creating ?
    It was not power, knowledge or possessions.
    What longing was it that led God to create ? What made him create human beings ?
    Even if God is self existing, absolute, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, He could not experience love by Himself.
    No, matter how all-knowing and all-powerful God may be , He cannot possess love alone. God too, is unable to achieve love by Himself. This is why love is the origin, the alpha, the motivation for the creation of heaven and earth.
    Love only works when you have a partner. This is the basis rule of the universe. The word happiness does not make sense when you are alone.
    Wihtout a partner God is a lonely and sad God.
     
  5. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Hello Soleil, welcome to the forums
    :)


    This statement is kind of self-contradicting isn't it? I mean,
    if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then there is nothing
    which He can not do.

    Also, to say that God doesn't want to be lonely... is a
    odd one if you consider that it was God who created the
    concept of "loneliness".

    You also say that God is self-existing. The definition implies
    that God does not stand in need of any partners.

    I do not think we mere mortals have any real ability to rationalize
    the question of why we were created other then what God has
    told us Himself. In the Quran, God says that He created mankind
    for one purpose only: to have mercy on us. Maybe others here
    can provide the answers from the point of view of other religious
    texts.
     
  6. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    No matter how all knowing and all powerful God may be, He cannot love all by himself as He pleases. We may say that God can love as He pleases because He is all powerful but this thinking creates a big problem, because it leads to the argument that an object of love is not needed. For this reason, in order for God,as the absolute central being to feel the stimuation and joy of His own love, He needs a partner in love.
    Even God Himself needs a partner. He cannot realize love by Himself. Someone can be selfsufficient but to experience love you need someone to return it back to you.
    You cant dance alone saying "I like my love"

    To have mercy on someone also require that someone to exist. Why would you create children just to have mercy on them. You would want them to love you back and even grow up to be better than you
     
  7. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Well, it doesn't really matter how you try and justify it Soliel, according
    to your argument, God is not All-powerful, if He needs a partner or needs
    anything from His creation. Such needs would contradict God's own words
    in which He affirms that he is All-Powerful. You do not think that you know
    God better then He knows Himself do you?

    I do not know what beliefs you follow, and maybe you can incorporate
    such limitations on God in your faith, but my faith clearly answers this
    concern that God created us because He was lonely, in the following
    verse in the Quran God answers as such:

    If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our
    presence,
    by no means would We do (it). Chapter 21. Verse 17
     
  8. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    As I see it, the energy of Divine love is a unifying energy that unites the Holy Trinity as ONE. As such it cannot be the motivation for creation. "I" is "ONE." God is "I AM." Creation or "AM," (God as three) preserves infinite potential by continually actualizing it. "Use it or lose it." The creative energies actualizing creation are not of the same quality as divine love.

    It is through divine love that conscious evolution becomes possible for us through increased consciousness of the source. God gets no satisfaction from our love. We are just a part of a necessary universal process that can be helped by "grace," divine love that permeates the universe.
     
  9. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    God created human beings in order to share love with them. He is not a distant God sitting on a throne. Life was created based on God's love. God did not generate love by first creating life. Life began because love started budding in His heart.
    Without being a God who needs love, He would be unable to make a relationship with the created world and human world.
    God values Human beings most because He needs an object partner for His love.
    Why did God create human beings ? It was in order to fulfill love.
    Complete love is found in our partner. That is why God created one.
    God exists for the sake of love. This is why love is so amazing

    Even God is obedient to the law of love.

    I feel so great that God is like that
     
  10. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    Nick this is the way I see the holy trinity. God created man and woman in His image.
    God himself is both male and female.
    Originaly if Adam and Eve had not fallen, they would have grown to spiritual maturity.
    Once they would have become one physically with the blessing of God. They would have created such holy trinity. Here is an analogy: in the same way as purple is a color which include blue and red, the 3 color are one. The blue is in the purple as well as the red and the purple is also in the blue and the red.
    When Jesus came as the second Adam to restore the failure of the original family, he was killed before he could create the first sinless family. The Holy spirit which is a feminine compasionate and nurturing spirit is the spirit of Eve. Jesus was victorious spiritually but his body s killed. The Holy trinity is God + Jesus + The Holy spirit.
    It is the spiritual trinity that has not been fulfilled on earth yet.
    We are still born with the original sin.
     
  11. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    This is the revelation only of the mentality of an egotistical ruler. This is most definitely not the logic of an advanced mind but of one cruel and twisted and obsessed by the need for power. Which goes to show that it is man made.
     
  12. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    What would be more precious to an all-powerful, omnipotent being than to be given something wonderful that is not a product of God's omnipotent powers? We have free-will. Is love really real if it is not freely given?


    Now that's really interesting. Compare this to something Jesus said:
    Luke 7
    36 Then one of the Pharisees invited Him to eat with him. He entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37 And a woman in the town who was a sinner found out that Jesus was reclining at the table in the Pharisee's house. She brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil 38 and stood behind Him at His feet, weeping, and began to wash His feet with her tears. She wiped His feet with the hair of her head, kissing them and anointing them with the fragrant oil. 39 When the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, "This man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what kind of woman this is who is touching Him—she's a sinner!"
    40 Jesus replied to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you."
    "Teacher," he said, "say it."
    41 "A creditor had two debtors. One owed 500 denarii, and the other 50. 42 Since they could not pay it back, he graciously forgave them both. So, which of them will love him more?"
    43 Simon answered, "I suppose the one he forgave more."
    "You have judged correctly," He told him. 44 Turning to the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she, with her tears, has washed My feet and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but she hasn't stopped kissing My feet since I came in. 46 You didn't anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; that's why she loved much. But the one who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
    49 Those who were at the table with Him began to say among themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?"
    50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."​

    Those who are forgiven much love much...extending mercy builds love.


    (Compare Dhammapada 1:1-6)
     
  13. Joedjr

    Joedjr A Sometimes Member

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    Hi c0de,
    I share your POV but: it would seem that G!D could exist with out this (our existence) creation, so to make man to have mercy on us when there could not have been this creation, makes me wonder about this a bit more. I think I lean more to G!D sharing a portion of His creation with us in our afterlife (of course we need to get a passing grade!). Now if you think there was some kind of human rebirth along our evolution, where G!D elevated the human essence I could maybe see what you are showing here.
    Joe
     
  14. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Soleil + Tao + SG + Joe







    @ Soleil

    I never said He was distant Soleil.





    @ Tao

    The fact that my God allowed you to type these words while
    you breathed the air that He owns, increases my faith in Him
    and His mercy for all of His created beings.




    @ SG

    Whenever God reveals Himself to any man/woman, that person's heart
    melts away with love. There is no 'will' that can withstand that encounter SG.





    @ Joe


    In order for gold to be purified, you have to melt away
    the baser metals. This is the nature of the journey,
    a spiritual alchemy.

    When God wants something to be done, it gets done. And
    He created man to rise above his lower self. This will happen,
    one way or another. Some will struggle in this life and be
    purified, others will be purified in the next life. But one day,
    this evolution will reach its climax... God Willing. :)
     
  15. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    What about Adam and Eve?
     
  16. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    If your referring to the 'original sin', then according to
    the Quran Adam disobeyed God not because he chose
    to go against God's will while being fully cognizant of
    the consequences. This might be the biblical view, but
    it is not the Quranic view.

    Adam sinned because of forgetfulness. And Eve, well,
    she had nothing to do with it. Besides, they were not
    always in God's presence. Much time passed between
    the point of God's warning and the actual act, whatever
    it really was (literal or metaphorical).

    But that is the story from the point of view
    of the Quran.

    btw, I forgot to address the second part of your post last time:


    That is a great passage. Thank you SG
    Especially the last sentence: "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." :)

    Personally, I have been struck by a verse in the Quran
    that was pointed out to me once which relates to our
    discussion here. It tells the story of Moses when he was
    called to God at the side of the mountain, and God spoke
    to him and commanded him to go to Egypt and warn.
    Now, Pharaoh is considered to be evil incarnate, yet
    this is what God said to Moses regarding Pharaoh:

    Go to Pharaoh; he has overstepped the bounds. But speak to him with gentle words so that hopefully he will pay heed or show some fear. (Surah Ta Ha: 43-44)

    This is what God instructed against the man who was challenging the might of God directly.
     
  17. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    You are saying basically that God is experienced through humanity but that he cannot be understood? This experience comes through 'chit' or awareness, however it cannot be considered absolute knowledge? Hare Krishnas believe chanting is enough to receive this awareness and that when the world begins to lose its 'chit' individuals experience it more strongly, thus to return the world's chit awareness?

    You know it actually sounds related to a flavor of gnostic thought and maybe to Christianity, too. I honestly think something like this is in John's works at least, and I know it definitely reminds me of the 'lively stones' concept. I don't know anything about chanting, however I do know having a positive attitude is important.
     

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