Who gets into heaven (Christianity)?

[Quahom1]

Peace--

Catholic Church held a strong power over all christian communities for a long time. In the Middle Ages Christians who had personal Bibles in their homes were prosecuted. Also, at the time no one but the priests were allowed to interpret the Bible. The Christians who dared to have different interpretation of the Christian Message were declared heretics and were killed (Cathars, Bogumils, etc). What we "know" about them is what Catholic Church wanted us to know about them. It would be the same as if Nazis would try to tell us who the Jews that were killed were.

Today, Catholic Church admits that it added, deleted and adjusted certain passages in The Holy Bible. What eventually came down to Christians is the version of the Holy Bible that Catholic Church 'reformed' to its own liking.

I would like to point out for the cheap seats (the bleachers), that during the middle ages, there were less than 2000 bibles. It wasn't until Gutenberg's press, that bibles became prevelant.

I will also point out that it wasn't persecution for faith that had people scrambling, but certain of the vatican that wanted land...and went after the rich. Kind of like certain religious clerics of today...only they want an entire people out of the way...

 

[Amica]

Peace to all--

Thomas: I am sorry if I offended you. Perhaps making the comparision with the Nazis was a bit strong, but you get what I meant to say. As for the verses that were changed/added/deleted, that I admit do not know. But, I am sure the Pope might answer some day--if such information was something that was passed down to all the Popes that took the Church office. When I get time, I will look for catholic resources that informs the public about this. The claim that Catholic Church authorities in the past adjusted/changed certain biblical passages is not something non-Catholics invented. Unfortunately, this came from the Vatican itself. I think it is a tragedy and I personally do not blame the Catholic believers or any other Christian out there who are trying to follow their faith.

 

[Thomas]

Peace to all--

Thomas: I am sorry if I offended you. Perhaps making the comparision with the Nazis was a bit strong, but you get what I meant to say.

I found what you meant to say uninformed — it's the usual ignorant opinion founded on nothing.

As for the verses that were changed/added/deleted, that I admit do not know.

Precisely, so you've just bought into anti-catholic propaganda blind.

But, I am sure the Pope might answer some day--if such information was something that was passed down to all the Popes that took the Church office.

Hang on. You admit you've accused us of something about which you know nothing, and for which you have no evidence or good reason to assume, but you're going to assume it's true anyway? That is both ignorant and offensive.

When I get time, I will look for catholic resources that informs the public about this.

Until then, I suggest you reserve judgement.

The claim that Catholic Church authorities in the past adjusted/changed certain biblical passages is not something non-Catholics invented.

Well unless you have evidence, it is.

Unfortunately, this came from the Vatican itself.

OK. Show me.

I think it is a tragedy and I personally do not blame the Catholic believers or any other Christian out there who are trying to follow their faith.

But I do hold to account those who thoughtlessly spread error and misinformation in pursuit of their own agendas.

For example – and this is an example:
You are Nazi, well, not a Nazi, but you're like the Nazis. I don't know this for sure, I don't know you, but I heard it somewhere, so I'm sure it's true. One day you'll realise just how awful you are, and face up to it. I think it is a tragedy and I personally do not blame your friends or family for your being a Nazi, I'm sure they're good people at heart.

See what I mean? I hope your friends and family would stand up for you if this kind of thing was said about you.

Thomas

 

[mee]

Peace--



Today, Catholic Church admits that it added, deleted and adjusted certain passages in The Holy Bible. What eventually came down to Christians is the version of the Holy Bible that Catholic Church 'reformed' to its own liking.

no worries, the most high JEHOVAH has made sure that in the last days true knowledge is abundant DANIEL 12;4


And THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION has a lot to do with that true abundant knowledge .


Read the Bible online: New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

 

[winner08]

In Luke, Jesus is explaining one of the differences in relationships on earth, and then in heaven. On earth, man was given woman to be a companion and helper. One part was to spare man from lonliness and lack of intimacy, and the other part was to have someone to walk and work with side by side. There is also the need to populate the earth with people by pro-creation.

In heaven, Jesus explains, there is no need for marriage/teaming up. Nor is there a need to populate heaven with people by pro-creation. This is because we will be interdimensional beings (like angels), and will be surrounded by said hosts and others like us, and shall have no time for loneliness, nor shall there be any lacking in help.

However, it does not mean that we will not have the love for those in heaven that we shared on earth. Those intimate relationships still exist, but the rules of mating and pro-creation, no longer apply (they aren't neccessary for the survival of the species).

If you think about it when we mate and conceive, we don't create the spirit of the life, just the body that will house that spirit. The spirit itself is the creation of God (just as the angels too are spirits created of God). In heaven, the need to conceive and create a natal situation, is gone.

Hope that helps.

v/r

Q

That was a great reply Quahom1. One of the best i have seen reguarding this subject.

 

[Marsh]

I'm aware of the 144,000 people, however the KJV doesn't elude to the fact that this is the case, quote]
rev 14;1 look it up

KJV: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


NIV: "They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. They have told no lies; they are without blame."

Quite a difference, no? Let me ask you a question: do you feel defiled after you make love with your wife/husband? Because I don't, nor do I think God intended me to feel that way. I think the idea that God would create men and women, sanctify their union, ask them to go forth and multiply, and then deny them his presence for doing so absolutely ridiculous. I'm not picking on you, Mee; I'm just saying that you were put together the way you were for a reason. In the OT, when God closed a woman's womb it was a sign of his displeasure, and when he opened it, it was considered a blessing.

In our language, virgin means a person who has not had sexual relations with anyone yet. In his parables, Jesus uses virgins to symbolize people who are faithful to God. Is there a greater test of faith than marriage? To remain monogamous with the same person for, say, fifty years? That takes a lot of faith.

Also note that this verse says that they were not defiled with women, which could also be interpreted as that they have not had multiple partners (i.e. were married and stayed faithful).



This is pretty specific to Christianity, though. Generally, I'd say that the one who God redeems is the one who wants redemption more than anything else. That's my hope, anyways.

 

[mee]

KJV: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


NIV: "They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. They have told no lies; they are without blame."

Quite a difference, no? Let me ask you a question: do you feel defiled after you make love with your wife/husband? Because I don't, nor do I think God intended me to feel that way. I think the idea that God would create men and women, sanctify their union, ask them to go forth and multiply, and then deny them his presence for doing so absolutely ridiculous. I'm not picking on you, Mee; I'm just saying that you were put together the way you were for a reason. In the OT, when God closed a woman's womb it was a sign of his displeasure, and when he opened it, it was considered a blessing.

In our language, virgin means a person who has not had sexual relations with anyone yet. In his parables, Jesus uses virgins to symbolize people who are faithful to God. Is there a greater test of faith than marriage? To remain monogamous with the same person for, say, fifty years? That takes a lot of faith.

Also note that this verse says that they were not defiled with women, which could also be interpreted as that they have not had multiple partners (i.e. were married and stayed faithful).



This is pretty specific to Christianity, though. Generally, I'd say that the one who God redeems is the one who wants redemption more than anything else. That's my hope, anyways.

And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
REVELATION 14;1-5



YES these verses have great meaning for the 144,000, they really must be spiritually clean , they are the bride of christ and only those who are not into spiritually adultrey are wanted . they are virgins when it comes to false religion, they are not contaminated in any way by the uncleaness of false religion .


remember for the most part the book of revelation is highly symbolic and it is not refering to litral virgins or women.


the 144,000 are men and women , it is not important at all , but being spiritually clean is of upmost importance.

and there is no falsehood in their mouths they are into truth .

 

[17th Angel]

That was a great reply Quahom1. One of the best i have seen reguarding this subject.

Hmm... The phrase "what's the point?" comes to mind, if we were meant to be in heaven wouldn't we be angels? Whats the point in making an earthly creature with the only plan to live forever, immortal, but then decide the plans changed and this creature that was designed for a certain habitat would now be placed in an alien and unsuiting location... Seems so indecisive/impulsive.

The key plan was to live forever and populate, which I also think it not realistic... A glass can only hold so much, it will overflow.. So if you're not on the side that says we go to heaven (which to me makes no sense) and you are on the side that says we live forever on earth... (which also to me makes no sense) I is baffled..

and there is no falsehood in their mouths they are into truth .

Who's truth? lulz there seem to be many versions.

 

[mee]

Who's truth? lulz there seem to be many versions.

the ones that follow the lamb
Additionally, “no falsehood was found in their mouths.” In this, they are like their King, Jesus Christ.

As a perfect human, “he committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.” (1 Peter 2:21, 22)

In being simultaneously without blemish and truthful, the 144,000 are prepared as a chaste bride for Jehovah’s great High Priest. When Jesus was on earth, he invited righthearted ones to follow him. (Mark 8:34; 10:21; John 1:43)

Those who responded imitated his way of life and obeyed his teachings.

Thus, during their earthly course, they “keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes” as he guides them through Satan’s world.

 

[Marsh]

Hey Mee, I made a mistake in my last response. Based on what I read from Quahom's post at the top of the page, it looked as if it was you who had said that marriage affects your ability to be taken into Heaven. It was AJA who said that, actually. Sorry.

HOWEVER, I would like to object to the idea that these 144,000 represent those of us who are to go to Heaven. Observe:

From Revelation 6: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There are a lot more than 144,000 people here, aren't there? And they are before God's throne, aren't they? And they are from all nations and not only from the tribes of Israel, aren't they? I'm pretty sure that this 144,000 represents something else, particularly considering that they aren't even described as being IN HEAVEN, but rather on Earth and on Mount Zion.

 

[Gatekeeper]

My understanding comes from forgiving seven times seventy times. If G!d expects this from us humans, and I don't mean forgive each individual 490 times, I just think that this is an indication that forgiveness should be part of our overall paradigm, ie who is going to count.

So my thinking, we will all get to heaven, eventually, we are given plenty of opportunities to make it right.

Of course to me, heaven and hell, they are choices and many walking this earth have made a choice to be in either currently. Tis perspective. Look neither high nor low for the kingdom, if you aren't happy with what you've got you won't be happy with what you get, aka the grass ain't greener on the other side of the fence.

Well said, wil!

There is a wave of Spiritual growth underway. I see it everyday in those I come in contact with. There are many whom have awakened to the reality of Christ in us. (Our hope for glory) The kingdom will come, and those whom reject the true nature of G-d, will one day be reconciled as well. That is my hope, and my desire. G-d is surely bigger than our mental concepts of Him. Just as He is bigger than our systems of belief.

I think as we progress as a peoples, we allow others to see the kingdom within us [Heaven]. Others will come to know that kingdom once they realize that they too can attain it. Each of us come to terms with G-ds reality in our own time I think. When others are ready to 'experience' the kingdom within, they will then know that G-d is indeed Love, and not found within the pages of an ancient book, but in the deepest depths of our hearts.

GK

 

[mee]

There are a lot more than 144,000 people here, aren't there? And they are before God's throne, aren't they? And they are from all nations and not only from the tribes of Israel, aren't they? I'm pretty sure that this 144,000 represents something else, particularly considering that they aren't even described as being IN HEAVEN, but rather on Earth and on Mount Zion.

Notice that after mentioning the 144,000, it goes on to speak of a
GREAT CROWD in revelation 7;9-10

After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”


this is the great crowd from all nations that will get through the
GREAT TRIBULATION revelation 7;14 and it will be those who will go on to inherit the paradise earth .
matthew 5;5
psalm 37;11
psalm 37;29

and remember that Jesus said he would have OTHER SHEEP
JOHN 10;16 , These other sheep will not be going to heaven ,their hope is to live forever on a paradise earth , and they will be from all nations and they will be a great crowd ,those are the ones refered to in revelation 7;9-10

the ones that will be going to heaven to rule in the HEAVENLY kingdom with Jesus, are called a LITTLE FLOCK LUKE 12;32

Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.

notice it is a little flock compared to the GREAT NUMBERLESS CROWD .



the understanding about the great crowd is all part of the true knowledge that is now abundant in the last days daniel 12;4.


yes its all happening in this time of the end .

that great crowd have all responded to the GOODNEWS of the kingdom
MATTHEW 24;14
and now they are waving their symbolic palm branches to welcome Gods reigning king JESUS CHRIST. and they also recognise and know the most high Jehovah who is sat on the throne


it makes no difference with God if he is in heaven, and the great crowd are on the earth , because he sees those whose heart is complete towards him .

Jehovah is in his holy temple.
Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne.
His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men.psalm 11;4​

These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Through faith in Christ’s shed blood, they will be protected during “the great tribulation.” Christ “will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:14-17)


Yes, millions of people living today can become part of the innumerable crowd that will survive the end of the present wicked system of things.

As subjects of the King Jesus Christ during his Millennial Reign, they will be guided by him to everlasting life on earth. Is that not good news?

 

[Marsh]

this is the great crowd from all nations that will get through the
GREAT TRIBULATION revelation 7;14 and it will be those who will go on to inherit the paradise earth .
matthew 5;5
psalm 37;11
psalm 37;29
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These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Through faith in Christ’s shed blood, they will be protected during “the great tribulation.” Christ “will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:14-17)

You're missing something in there, Mee-- something very important. It says that these people who come through the Great Tribulation will be before God night and day. If God is in Heaven, then they must be in Heaven as well. After all, that's where they are in Revelation.

This paradise Earth thing.... it's not really Biblical, Mee. The idea that there are going to be classes goes against Jesus' essential teachings that we are to become one. How can we be one when there are two? Reminds me of Animal Farm: All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others...

 

[mee]

You're missing something in there, Mee-- something very important. It says that these people who come through the Great Tribulation will be before God night and day. If God is in Heaven, then they must be in Heaven as well. After all, that's where they are in Revelation.

This paradise Earth thing.... it's not really Biblical, Mee. The idea that there are going to be classes goes against Jesus' essential teachings that we are to become one. How can we be one when there are two? Reminds me of Animal Farm: All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others...

john 10;16

Jesus is talking about other sheep, meaning other than those who are going to inherit the heavenly kingdom.


it is not a case of being inferior if we have an earthly hope , we are all under the shepherd JESUS .


and the bible holds out a wonderful hope for the future of the earth and the GREAT CROWD.


And rather than not being a biblical teaching ,it is all part of Gods purpose to bring the earth back to paradise conditions.


If the most high JEHOVAH has decided that he wants 144,000 to go to heaven to be with Jesus to rule as kings and priests so be it.

that is what the bible REALLY teaches.

but as for Mee i am looking forward to living on an earth that has been brought back to paradise conditions.

and it sounds real good to mee matthew 5;5



and Jesus is the one that will be the arm of JEHOVAH to get the job done


Next, the end, when he(Jesus) hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.
26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.
27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
1 corinthians 15;24-28




Yes, eventually even death is to be brought to nothing
(Or, “is to be destroyed.” Lit., “is being made ineffective)






yes the shepherd JESUS CHRIST is the one to listen too
and as he said in john 10;16

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. john 10;16



he has other sheep that are not part of the heavenly hope fold , but they will listen to his voice and they will be one flock with one shepherd.


and those other sheep are ready and willing to work along with the sheep who are going to heaven, and now in this time of the end most of the 144,000 are already in heaven with JESUS.


but the channel that JESUS is feeding is being very well fed with lots of good spiritual food matthew 24;45-47


and the other sheep are willing to be fed from the channel Jesus is using.



and day and night they are rendering him sacred service


That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
revelation 7;15

yes, the tent of God will be with mankind, and its all about the
NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH



1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.
2
I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “LOOK THE TENT OF GOD IS WITH MANKIND and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
revelation 21;1-4



Yes when God is with them , and his tent is with them great things are accomplished.

it does not mean that God is going to come down litrally to the earth ,it just means the tent or protection is there .


so those who are going to inherit the earth are before the throne of God

The book of Revelation points to a time when those who maintain a clean standing before Jehovah will “come out of the great tribulation.”


The account says that “the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” (Rev. 7:13-15)

That one seated upon the throne is none other than Jehovah God, the most glorious Person in the universe.

Try to imagine what a joy it will be when he welcomes you as a guest in his tent, supplying you with his protective care so that no harm will befall you!


And to a certain extent, we can enjoy his protection and care even now.


yes ,we have the chance to right now be in a SPIRITUAL PARADISE


but at a future time it will be a litral paradise on earth as well
.




and at a future time even more (other sheep) will be resurrected into a paradise earth , and they will have the chance to go along with Jesus and his channel.


its all working out to Gods purpose to get the earth back to what Gods original purpose was all about.

and it is very good


the bible and what it REALLY teaches is very good .

The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
psalm 37;29 ​

Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
matthew 5;5

But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.​

psalm 37;11

 

[mee]

This paradise Earth thing.... it's not really Biblical, Mee. quote]




matthew 5;5

psalm 37;29


psalm 37;11




Jesus said: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” (Matt. 5:5)




The transformation of the earth into a paradise will take place under a government that exercises its dominion from heaven, a Kingdom with Jesus Christ as King. (Matthew 6:9, 10)


First, that Kingdom will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18; Daniel 2:44)


Then, as the “Prince of Peace,” Jesus Christ will fulfill these prophetic words:
“To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end.” (Isaiah 9:6, 7)

Under that Kingdom, millions of humans, including those who will be brought back to life by means of the resurrection, will have the opportunity to inherit the earth.


John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15.




not biblical i think it is .

 

[mee]

so back to those who are going to heaven they are going to rule as kings and priests with JESUS





and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
revelation 5;10



To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. revelation 3;21