Unreliable Ahadith Regarding The Return of Jesus PBUH

[c0de]

The root cause of the belief in the return of Jesus PBUH by most of the Muslim ummah is based in the hadith. This thread deals specifically and directly with those ahadith which talk about the return of Jesus PBUH. In doing so, I have found a valuable resource in Dr. Ahmed Shafaat and his very valuable research into this matter. He is a highly respected scholar who is actually one of two leading Muslim scholars on Judiasm and Christianity in North America. In matters of credibility, this places him well above most "scholars" like Harun Yahya, whose website is the source of much misinformation on this issue. (Dr. Shafaat has also done a lot of great work on correcting the views of mainstream Islamic scholarship on matters of shariah. But let us stick to the matter at hand.) It will come as a big surprise to many, especially the ones who give credibility to web authors like Harun Yahya etc. that the ahadith which talk about the return of Jesus PBUH are not reliable and their authenticity is highly suspect. There are two reasons why:

1: The earliest and most authentic compilation of hadith (Al Muwatta) by Imam Maliki does not contain these ahadith at all.

2: The second is that these ahadith in Bukhari and Muslim are related by Ibn Shihab Al Zuhri, who gave no reliable sources for his tranmission. But more importantly, Al Zhuri is himself shown to be an unreliable source for hadith transimission.

Instead of wasting time giving my own opinions on the issue, I will state Dr. Ahmed Shafaat's research. First regarding point one, and then regarding point 2:



Regarding Point #1:

Why Imam Maliki did not include those hadiths as part of Muwatta

"Muwatta also does not mention the return of Jesus. In my article I showed that if Imam Malik knew of the traditions of Jesus’ return and he believed in them, he would have no reason to omit them. Hence there are only two possibilities: either the Imam did not know about these traditions or he did not believe in them. In both cases the authenticity of the traditions is cast into doubt. Malik wrote his Muwatta after the middle of the second century, about 150 years after the Prophet. During this time the belief in the return of Jesus -- an interesting, fascinating and important belief -- would have spread far enough for a man of Malik’s knowledge to come to know about it. And if Malik knew about it but did not believe in it, then his judgment in the matter carries some weight since he lived a considerable time before Bukhari and Muslim.

In Bukhari all the ahadith about the return of Jesus have chains that pass through Ibn Shihab and then after one more link through Abu Hurayrah. If the isnad method was very dependable this would have been acceptable but given the fact that the isnad method has not produced too dependable results we cannot put too much confidence in the reliability of these ahadith. There is a distinct possibility that (Ib Shihab) al-Zuhri heard these “ahadith” from not-too-reliable sources and then transmitted them without mentioning the source, as he was at times wont to do. This will explain why these “ahadith” are not found in Muwatta: Imam Malik might have heard these traditions from al-Zuhri, but he did not put much trust in them since no reliable source was given by (Ibn Shibab) al-Zuhri. Later, by the time of Bukhari and Muslim these traditions had been attributed to the Prophet through Abu Hurayrah and then they became acceptable."

Regarding Point #2


This deals with Ibn Shihab directly: Bukhari himself criticizes the source

...Yet the following evidence suggests that al-Zuhri did not always conform to acceptable standards of accuracy and objectivity:

Rabi‘ah would say to Ibn Shihab: My situation is totally different from you. Whatever I say, I say it from my own self and you say it on the authority of the Prophet and so you must be careful, and it is not befitting for a person to waste himself [like this]. (Bukhari, Tarikh al-Kabir, vol. 3, Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, pp. 286-7)

Rabi‘ah would say to Ibn Shihab: When you narrate something according to your own opinion, always inform the people that this is your own view. And when you narrate something from the Prophet, always inform them that it is from the Prophet so that they do not consider it to be your opinion. (Khatib Baghdadi, Al-Faqih wa Al-Mutafaqqih, vol. 1, Lahore: Dar al-Ahya al-Sunnah, p. 148).

Imam Bukhari had the following opinion:

Zuhri would narrate ahadith and on most occasions would insert sentences from his own self. Some of these would be mursal and some of them would be his own. (Ibn Rajab, Fath al-Bari, 1st ed., vol. 5, Jaddah: Dar Ibn al-Jawzi, 1996, p. 286)

In a letter to Imam Malik, Imam Layth Ibn Sa‘ad writes:

When we would meet Ibn Shihab, there would arise a difference of opinion in many issues. When any one of us would ask him in writing about some issue, he, in spite of being so learned, would give three very different answers, and he would not even be aware of what he had already said. It is because of this that I have left him – something that you did not like (Ibn Qayyim, I’lam al- Muwaqqi‘in, vol. 3, Beirut: Dar al-Jayl, p. 85).


Imam Shaf‘i, Darqutni and many others have attributed Tadlis to Zuhri. (Ibn Hajar, Tabaqat al-Mudallisin, Cairo: Maktabah Kulliyyat al-Azhar, p. 32-3)

Islamic View of the Coming/Return of Jesus





For the most part Muslims try to defend the idea that Jesus PBUH
is going to return because of what the mainstream scholars of Islam
have to say. But the mainstream scholarship is itself guilty of not looking
into this matter in enough detail. The reasons for this are highly suspicious,
and it is possible that because this belief in the return of Jesus PBUH is used
as ammunition for so many political and militant movements, that this issue
is consciously suppressed by the institutionalized sects of Islam for material
and political objectives.

 

[Bishadi]

How about using your own mind to just see reality.

If a man walked around 2k yrs ago, is it possible (show evidence) that a person, now in the ground is going to 'come back'?

Now if we look at all of creation (every person ever born) as being of the life, of God; then any person can show the beauty of God in what they do, represent and contribute to existence.

So from Moses, to Muhammad, Jesus and Darwin; the gifts they left are how we judge the man.

What they taught is still alive within us all.

Then if HE that BE is all HIS, then to read the old works and see the 'promise' of truth to come. Whether is be a (so called) returning Jesus, messiah, kalki or what have you; in each rendition they could be sharing the same 'hope'.

That one day a man will walk, to finish what God had promised; the revealing!

What name any call HIM is irrelevant, because the knowledge is the importance.

 

[c0de]

Now if we look at all of creation (every person ever born) as being of the life, of God; then any person can show the beauty of God in what they do, represent and contribute to existence.

I like this way of thinking.

 

[Abdullah]

I like this way of thinking.

Salaam br,

I've looked through some of Dr Shafaats articles and one thing that struck me is that he seems to be a sell out to some of the major issues of Islam that the non-Muslims [in general?] dont like, such as some of the hadd punishments [he rejects mutawatir hadith/s for one, and for another he goes against the majority of Scholars [consensus?]; he considers non-Muslim religions to be valid and a source of salavation too? [which goes against the consensus too; consensus regard it kufr and some may not, but only bidah if it is based on a highly nuanced interpretation of islam]; he considers a kuffar ruled world government to be the type Islam advocates and he advocates that Muslims help them achieve it? , he suppoorts the veiw of Aminah Wudoud that women can lead men in prayer [which goes against consesus too], he says that interest on loans is allowed... and he seems to have developed his own science of hadith, where if any stands in his way, there somehow fabrications...

Basically br, he is too much of a sell out to be trusted or taken seriously

Salam

 

[c0de]

@ Salam Brother Abdallah


Bro, this entire argument you are trying to make is self-defeating from the very beginning. Instead of dealing with what the man is actually saying, you are making a false image of the man and attacking that image and saying he can not be trusted. For the sake of amusement, let me apply this same type of criticism to your source, which you have applied to mine. Lets see how much damage I can do?

Ok, so you have accused my source of "selling out" right? Now, a source which you gave me (repeatedly) to support your arguments was this web author: Harun Yahya. Now lets see how this accusation of "selling out" is much more applicable to your source then mine. Do you know that Harun Yayha was sent to jail for 3 years for "creating an illegal organization for personal gain."* Do you know that his organization is described as a "cult-like organization, that jealously guards the secrets of its considerable wealth"**?

And lets not forget brother that your source is not actually a "scholar" at all. He has founded the so called "Scientific Research Foundation" but he has no training in any science. The guy studied at a university of fine arts at the departments of Painting and Interior Design! So tell me, how can he possibly be qualified to start a Scientific Research Foundation???? Where do you think he gets the funding for this organization? Where do you think that money actually goes??? He puts up his joke of an amateur website on the internet with all these "free" articles and e-books and people think he is some great charitable personality. While all of it is just a front for his "research" organization??? No wonder this guy was sent to jail.

Finally, lets not forget that the information that is actually present on his website is very inaccurate and misleading. For example, the article which you gave me to support your case about the hadith issue, it had a MAJOR error right in the beginning. This man claimed that Imam Maliki's Muwatta contained the hadiths which foretell the return of Christ. This is either a completely amateur mistake, or an outright lie. In either case, it just shows how unreliable this source actually is.

Now, as for your attack on Dr. Shafaat, and your premise that he is a "sell out". The basic problem with this point is this: he has no reason to "sell out". Unlike Mr. Yahya, Dr. Ahmed Shafaat can get a high paying teaching post in any university based purely on his degrees (the guy has a PhD in mathematics by the way, this is in addition to him being one of the more recognized scholars on the Abrahamic religion). I would also like to point your attention to his article in which he criticizes the secularism of Turkey. If he really was a "sell out" to secular elites like you imply that he is, why would he be criticizing the secular establishment?

Now, brother Abdallah, instead of attacking the man, please deal with his actual arguments. The "consensus of the majority" that you hold in such high regard is actually just the consensus of the majority of the institutionalized >sects<. This man has provided his arguments against the opinions of the "scholars". He has defeated their reasoning completely (with Allah's help). This should reveal how completely inept and corrupt the entire scholarship in Muslim countries has gotten...




Sources:

* Birch, Nicholas TURKEY: SCIENTISTS FACE OFF AGAINST CREATIONIST

** ""Harun Yahya" sentenced to prison", National Center for Science Education

 

[Abdullah]

According to the beliefs of the people of the Sunnah (the Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi’i and Maliki schools), ...the descent from the skies of the Prophet ‘Isa (as)... are all unquestionable tenets of faith.

Harun Yahya - Mahdi According to Four Sunni Schools - Download Page

Al-Imam al-A`zam Abu Hanifah, imam of our school, Imam Hanbal, imam of the Hanbali school, Imam Malik, imam of the Maliki school and Imam Shafi’i, imam of the Shafi’i school, have all stated that the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will return to Earth

Mahdi According to Four Sunni Schools.com


We can see from the above that Imaam Maalik was indeed of the view that Jesus [pbuh] will indeed return; if his muwatta dont include hadiths of the return of jesus [pbuh], maybe it weren't meant to include every single sahih or mutawatir hadith there is...

It is said that all of the hadiths in muwatta are included in Sahih Bukhari?, thus we can see there are far more Sahih hadiths then what Imaam Maalik has included in his muwatta?.

 

[c0de]

Brother Abdallah, the fact that you are using a convicted criminal as one of your sources in a religious argument, does not stand well for your case. Also, the second link you provided which claims that Imam Maliki believed in the return of Jesus PBUH provides ZERO references for its claim. Even the Harun Yahya source (if we even allow it into the discussion) you will notice provides no referrences to Imam Maliki.

As for your argument about Bukhari, that has already been dealt with. Bukhari has himself critisized the source of the hadith (Shihab Zuhri) who was not a reliable person. So any chain of transmission which is dependent on him can not be taken as infallible.

 

[Abdullah]

@ Salam Brother Abdallah


Bro, this entire argument you are trying to make is self-defeating from the very beginning. Instead of dealing with what the man is actually saying, you are making a false image of the man and attacking that image and saying he can not be trusted. For the sake of amusement, let me apply this same type of criticism to your source, which you have applied to mine. Lets see how much damage I can do?

Salaam bro

This is not about 'damage' bro, but considering what type of credibility one has; if he only went against one or two major issues of Islam then maybe you would have thought that he has come across something for us to consider... but, c'mon bro , he says we should assist in acomplishing a non-Muslim world government and that the Quran advocates such a type of government too ?; he says interest is allowed on loans! ; now br, tell me, how are we supposed to take such a person seriously?

Ok, so you have accused my source of "selling out" right? Now, a source which you gave me (repeatedly) to support your arguments was this web author: Harun Yahya. Now lets see how this accusation of "selling out" is much more applicable to your source then mine. Do you know that Harun Yayha was sent to jail for 3 years for "creating an illegal organization for personal gain."* Do you know that his organization is described as a "cult-like organization, that jealously guards the secrets of its considerable wealth"**?

And lets not forget brother that your source is not actually a "scholar" at all. He has founded the so called "Scientific Research Foundation" but he has no training in any science. The guy studied at a university of fine arts at the departments of Painting and Interior Design! So tell me, how can he possibly be qualified to start a Scientific Research Foundation???? Where do you think he gets the funding for this organization? Where do you think that money actually goes??? He puts up his joke of an amateur website on the internet with all these "free" articles and e-books and people think he is some great charitable personality. While all of it is just a front for his "research" organization??? No wonder this guy was sent to jail.

Finally, lets not forget that the information that is actually present on his website is very inaccurate and misleading. For example, the article which you gave me to support your case about the hadith issue, it had a MAJOR error right in the beginning. This man claimed that Imam Maliki's Muwatta contained the hadiths which foretell the return of Christ. This is either a completely amateur mistake, or an outright lie. In either case, it just shows how unreliable this source actually is.

You sure he never said that Imaam Maalik too is of this view?, rather then there being such hadiths in his muwatta?

Now, as for your attack on Dr. Shafaat, and your premise that he is a "sell out". The basic problem with this point is this: he has no reason to "sell out". Unlike Mr. Yahya, Dr. Ahmed Shafaat can get a high paying teaching post in any university based purely on his degrees (the guy has a PhD in mathematics by the way, this is in addition to him being one of the more recognized scholars on the Abrahamic religion). I would also like to point your attention to his article in which he criticizes the secularism of Turkey. If he really was a "sell out" to secular elites like you imply that he is, why would he be criticizing the secular establishment?

Some of his such criticism leads to him at the end slipping in things like Islam advocates a non-Muslim world government? and Islam validates all religions? ..., and the support for women can lead men in prayer; read and see for yourself br, so this type of thing gets you thinking wether the first bits are to 'get Muslims into his trust' ...

Now, brother Abdallah, instead of attacking the man, please deal with his actual arguments. The "consensus of the majority" that you hold in such high regard is actually just the consensus of the majority of the institutionalized >sects<. This man has provided his arguments against the opinions of the "scholars". He has defeated their reasoning completely (with Allah's help). This should reveal how completely inept and corrupt the entire scholarship in Muslim countries has gotten...




Sources:

* Birch, Nicholas TURKEY: SCIENTISTS FACE OFF AGAINST CREATIONIST

** ""Harun Yahya" sentenced to prison", National Center for Science Education

Harun Yahya is a specialist in debunking the evolution theory bro, and regarding his sentencing; when he wrote his book about the 'masonic conspiracy' in the late eighties i think it was, he was sectioned by the turkish authorities in a mental hospital; now we know that he weren't crazy after all and there are lots of evidences about such a conspiracy [not that it is conclusive for me though ], with masses of people inclined to believe it; I'm just mentioning this to show how 'active' the turkish government can get over cracking down on anything they fear could be the slightest sign of a threat to their fiercly secular constitution, and a return to the Caliphate.

The turkish constitution takes teaching the evolution theory as a national curriculum verry seriously?, thus with Harun Yahya's works gathering momentum and widespread coverage, evolutionism is indeed threatened br, and maybe the Turkish authorities [there maybe a 'Islamic at heart' government in Turkey now, but the 'constitution' itself is strictly protected by the secularists] feel that this threatens their secular constitution too?, and we know how we cannot put it past any government of this day and age to put a person in prison to discredit him and his organisation on trumped up charges; not saying that this is indeed what happened, but it is possilbe, so lets all keep an open mind inshAllah

There are some things which Harun Yahya has said in the past [about the nature of creation and the 'whereabouts of Allah'] which fundementally went against Islam, so I am verry carefull as to what material I use from his sites bro, but a simple look at what he has put on his site regarding the second coming of jesus, shows that he merely quotes great Imams and Scholars of manistream Islam, and gives THEIR interpetation of the islamic sources regarding it; he includes all the referenes too, so basically what he's doing bro is not giving his personal view but relating the mainstream view to us; in this sense it is the latters teachings we are to accept and not his pesonally

Hope that helps bro,

Salam

 

[c0de]

Salam Brother Abdallah

Harun Yahya is a specialist in debunking the evolution theory bro,

Tell me, how can a person who majored in fine arts be a
"specialist" in debunking evolutionary theory???

You sure he never said that Imaam Maalik too is of this view?, rather then there being such hadiths in his muwatta?

Bro your the one who is claiming that Imam Maliki was of this view.
Well, if that is true, then were is your actual reference for this claim?
Where in his writings has he supported the belief? Your sources mention
Maliki, yet provide no references. That is completely unprofessional.

Notice how the arguments Dr. Shafaat provided were all provided with clear references.

Some of his such criticism leads to him at the end slipping in things like Islam advocates a non-Muslim world government? and Islam validates all religions?, and the support for women can lead men in prayer; read and see for yourself br, so this type of thing gets you thinking wether the first bits are to 'get Muslims into his trust' ...

We can debate all those points themselves. But you are not
debating here at all. You are just accusing the man for being
untrustworthy because his views do not fit in line with yours
and your "majority" of scholars. That is no way to carry an
argument.

The turkish constitution takes teaching the evolution theory as a national curriculum verry seriously?,

Evolution can be seen to be COMPLETELY compatible
with the Quran.

But that is another topic completely. I would like you
to answer the points raised by the thread please brother.
Distracting the issue is not going to help you make a
stronger case.

 

[Abdullah]

Brother Abdallah, the fact that you are using a convicted criminal as one of your sources in a religious argument, does not stand well for your case. Also, the second link you provided which claims that Imam Maliki believed in the return of Jesus PBUH provides ZERO references for its claim. Even the Harun Yahya source (if we even allow it into the discussion) you will notice provides no referrences to Imam Maliki.

The references he provides to quotes of great traditional Scholars, where they say that there is a consensus on this, will include the School of Maalik too br

 

[Abdullah]

Salam Brother Abdallah





Tell me, how can a person who majored in fine arts be a
"specialist" in debunking evolutionary theory???

Evolution Deceit. com - This website is the interactive version of the book "Evolution Deceit" by HARUN YAHYA

Bro your the one who is claiming that Imam Maliki was of this view.
Well, if that is true, then were is your actual reference for this claim?
Where in his writings has he supported the belief? Your sources mention
Maliki, yet provide no references. That is completely unprofessional.

InshAllah I'll try and get you more

 

[c0de]

Evolution Deceit. com - This website is the interactive version of the book "Evolution Deceit" by HARUN YAHYA

Why would I care about this man's opinion
on evolution if he never studied biology?

If you do not want to believe in evolution,
then you are free to. But this thread is
about the ahadith concerning the return
of Jesus PBUH.

 

[Friend]

Tell me, how can a person who majored in fine arts be a
"specialist" in debunking evolutionary theory???

I know senior scientists Muslims majored in more than one field in sciences... Without that get certificates

like ibn Rushd ..and ..Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā ..and many other

Averroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Harun Yahya attacked Freemasons and Zionism.. And he paid the price for that.Turkey is a secular State and Mason have a long history in it .

Hadith science is well known and has laws and standards and documented...It has classifications, such as certain and the weak and fake

God bless you.

 

[c0de]

Salamwalaikum Friend

like ibn Rushd ..and ..Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā ..and many other

Averroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That does not mean anything because you are assuming
that had these people been alive today, they would be
supporting Harun Yahya, rather then having found a way
to reconcile evolution with the Quran.

Harun Yahya attacked Freemasons and Zionism.. And he paid the price for that.Turkey is a secular State and Mason have a long history in it .

Actually bro, he went to jail for "creating an illegal
organization for personal gain".

http://www.reuters.com/article/artsNews/idUSL0992091620080509?sp=true

I am no fan of masonry and zionism, but to think
that people like Harun Yahya are defenders of faith...
that is just wrong. These people feed of people's charity,
by pretending to be their heroes...

Hadith science is well known and has laws and standards and documented...

Then why can't it defend itself against these arguments???

 

[c0de]

Just for the record:

Evolution is not an argument against God.
Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
And evolution does not contradict the Quran.

Now, back to the topic please.

 

[Bishadi]

Just for the record:

Evolution is not an argument against God.
Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
And evolution does not contradict the Quran.

Now, back to the topic please.

ah... a straight shooter!!!!

back at you; i like your thinking!

the argument is moot.... Jesus is not here, nor coming back.

Will a man walk with the "same" compassion, love and intent of Moses, Muhammed and Jesus, be finishing the job? Yep!

does magic exist? NO! (doesn't take anything from God)

Little reduces God more than the misinterpretations of the literature left by the contributers throughout time.

 

[c0de]

Will a man walk with the "same" compassion, love and intent of Moses, Muhammed and Jesus, be finishing the job? Yep!

No...

There are no more chapters to this book.
It is at an end, and a new book will replace it.

This is the truth according to the Quran.
The afterlife is all that is waiting for us now.

 

[Friend]

I am no fan of masonry and zionism, but to think
that people like Harun Yahya are defenders of faith...
that is just wrong. These people feed of people's charity, by pretending to be their heroes...

Search for the secrets of Masonic , you will know the truth


Secrets of the Masons


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z7joH7JL3U&feature=related
secrets of masons

 

[c0de]

Search for the secrets of Masonic , you will know the truth

I started researching the masons almost ten years ago....
It took me a long time to figure out the real truth...
One thing I can guarantee you, is that you will not find
it on youtube, or with people like Harun Yayha...

But if its people like that who have enchanted you... then so be it.

 

[Bishadi]

No...

There are no more chapters to this book.
It is at an end, and a new book will replace it.

are you suggesting ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the knowledge that has evolvd on this earth over the millenium is going in the trash?

as well PLEASE do not say quran is the last word otherwise you then make Hadith into a talmut

This is the truth according to the Quran.

seems perhaps another read to see that much of the quran is about the future, the coming, the second creation....... the Days of Judgment.

The afterlife is all that is waiting for us now.

your afterlife is already in motion....

what you do 'here' on this earth IS your afterlife.

for example; each night you go to sleep; your mind is not making choices as a self (aware)..... there is no difference of death!

When you awaken you have another chance to build, to create, to support life to continue (Good defined) by choice. (we in heaven NOW)

When your body is tired and returns to the earth, just like Muhammed, Jesus, Darwin or Abe Lincoln; that 'singular' person no longer exists, except in what choices were made while alive. Them folk are spoken about because of what they left; they still live in what they gave us by choice.

No one is going anywhere!

That is truth............ either grow up and know it, or maintain beliefs and lies (jinn) as your guide. They do nothing for you, God, the future or your ever lasting life.

God doesn't want people kissing the dirt for his honor, that is a man created ritual (pay homage)............ Best to honor God by giving of yourself 'for life to continue'............ support life! That is how to live forever.

You want to live longer; spend 5 times a day planting trees, teaching truth, giving of yourself for 'others'............ be a do'er (with your life)