I asked this question at one time. I will ask it again. I am still having a hard time understanding what has been mention here many times. The fall of man. It has been said here on many occasions that the first man Adam had disobayed God and sined therefore fallen. My question has always been, If God is foreknowing. Knows the end from the beginning, then how is it that man had fallen in the first place. God should have known excactly what Adam and eve would do, before they even thought it. If God knew that they would sin before He even created them, then Adam and eve did excatlly what God had planed on them doing. Now If God is a god of all knowing and we can do things like disobey him without His knowing before hand, then he is not God. Does anybody here see this? I mean really. The God I believe in does know everything before hand. The God I believe in knew Adam and Eve would sin before they were even created. I believe this was and is part of God's plan for man. I don't believe anything we do suprises God. Throws God for a loop. Oh I didn't see that one comming. Got me there Adam! If Adam and Eve sined and God had no idea that they would do what they did, then God is not God.
Fallen man or part of the plan??
- Thread starter winner08
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From Islamic view, God knew that Adam is "programmed" for mistakes (unlike angels). Adam disobeyed, & then repented. Earth is part of a learning experience. Whosoever remains mindful of God, & repents after occasional disobedience, goes back to heaven.
So, God made Adam knowing that he would sin (mistakes). So then the view or many christians that God made Adam perfect and Adam used his free will to sin to go against God, is not correct according to Islam.
this brings up a question I had. if God gave man a free will, then we have the option to sin or not. Why is it that not one human that has ever been created has used his so called free will NOT to commit a sin. If I had free will I would used my free will to not sin against God. So why has not one man NOT sined. Jesus is the only one never to commit a sin, and Jesus said it is not my will but my Fathers will.
M
mee
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First one has to believe in the fall.
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soleil10
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God did not want Adam and Eve to fall. Absolutely not. This is why he gave them a commandment !!!
God knew that Adam and Eve had to go through a period of growth until they reach maturity. It is the same with our own children. When they are small, then teenagers we ask them to follow certain rules for their benefit until they mature.
God knew of the possibility that they may disobey him but he also knew that only through free will true love really exist, can come about and be returned.
Adam and Eve had to go through three stages: Formation,(1-7) Growth (8-14) and perfection (15-21). They fell at the beginnig of the 3rd stage.
All parents are warned to be prepared for the teenage years.
Man has a portion of responsibility even if God does 95%, man has his portion of responsibility. In this case, his responsibility was to follow God's commandement.
It is important to understand the following points:
1)What was the motivation for lucifer to tmept Eve and fall.
2)What fruit in the Garden was so delicious and so strong, so powerful, that God had to give them a commandement to guard them against it
Especially after the fall, God knows that we are divided and answer to two masters. There are two type of prophecies in the bible for Jesus. Prophecies of Glory and prophecies of suffering, depending on how fallen men would respond and receive him.
Every parent knows that his or her children has a free will to choose to respond to their love. When your child does not respond, your heart is hurt. God heart is in pain. His pain is unimaginable. A parent would rather suffer him/herself than see their child suffer. His scream and agony shot through the whole universe.
That does not make any sense. Love takes 2 parties. You cannot control the love of the other otherwise, it would not be true love but the love of a robot.
God wanted to experience true love with his children.
That is the opposite. God gave humankind 3 blessing in Genesis. He needed the first family to succeed and start the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. True Love requires free will. God had to take that risk for the sake of love.
When Eve fell, she became afraid and went to Adam for comfort. Adam could have scolded her and refuse to fall too. He did not.
Even after the fall, Adam and Eve could have repented. They did not.
God created a way for Cain and Abel to restore their family. Since after the fall both Satan and God had a claim on Adam's family, God ask Cain and Abel to make an offering. God accepted' Abel offering and wanted Cain (satan side) the first son to humble himself to Abel (God side). He did not but instead killed his younger brother.
We can see throughout the bible God favored the second son over and over. The second son has to love the first son and the elder son had to submit to the second son. Jacob succeeded with his brother that wanted to kill him too. It took many years to get to that point.
True Love requires free will. God gave a commandement because he knew the risk.
The motivation for God to create was love. Everything God does is for the sake of True Love. Jesus did the same
Great reply:
So what was your ansewer? did God create man to fail or did God not know Adam and would fall?
17th Angel
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He could forsee the fall? He can also, forsee the end.... So it must work out alright.
Uhm... Do you believe in saw-tawn? And other demons?....... If so what were they and how did they come to be..
Uhm... Do you believe in saw-tawn? And other demons?....... If so what were they and how did they come to be..
S
soleil10
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God motivation to create was love. Love comes before life.
God created Adam and Eve to be his partners in love. Love takes two.
God has all the knowledge, all the power, all the wealth....He wanted to experience love through His creation.
In Genesis, He gave A&E 3 blessings through which He wanted them to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
He created man to succeed. Absolutely !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
True Love requires FREE WILL . Every parent knows that. We give unconditionally to our children and try to guide them, even warn them.
But at the end of the day, children have their own free will to respond and follow what their parents told them
God is not a DICTATOR or a sadistic, mean spirited puppet master.
The fall in the garden was cause by the misuse of love. Adam and Eve were supposed to wait until maturity (fruitful) so God can bless their sexual union (multiply) and be at the center of their marriage and family.
Lucifer who was created before A&E was their teacher. As A&E grew, he became jealous of God's love for them. He was a servant but A&E were destined to be God's children. God loved him the same as before but he felt he was getting less loved...... and trouble started.
17th Angel
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Sol, yah tell it as if you were there lol... 
soleil10, I'm sorry, I just don't know where you get this info from. most of what you said here is unscriptual. (MOST) not all.
1. God created Adam and eve to be partners in love. Where is that at. where is a scripture that says that.
2. God has all the power and wealth and knowledge. Yes I agree.
3. the fall of the garden was a misuse of love, where is that scripture?
4. He created man to succeed. Yes He did.
5. Lucifer was created before A&E was. But I don't agree that Lucifer got jealous. Lucifer was created to do a job for God and that Job is being the adversary. Lucifer did excaltly what God intended him to do and satan can do no more than God allowes him to do. it was not caused by jealousy. This is just one more of man's traditions that has been taught through the yrs. to decieved man. There;s no trouble that satan caused that God did not allowe him to do. This was and is all a part of God's plan for man. I am not starting anything here. I am not saying this to be mean spirited.
6. can you give me any scriptures on these things you said. I am a firm believer in scripture. That scripture is the inspiered word of God. If I can read what you said in scripture i will believe it.
7. As for free will, I am not a believer. Philippians 2:13 For it is God who works IN YOU both to WILL and to DO for His Good pleasure. and scripture says All of God's pleasure will be done. So many times throughout the bible we have many examples of God's will being done, not man's will. Jesus did not do one thing own his own accord. Everything He did was God's will.
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soleil10
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1 John 4:16 explains that "God is love" This pinpoints the essence of God internal nature. Thus our relationship with God, ultimately is one of intimacy and love.
God is "one" according to Mark 12:29. The term "One" does not mean single but the parts. God made us in his image, male and female. Gen 1-27
Jesus describes the dynamics of "Becoming one" when he says "may all the believersbe "one" as God and Christ are "one". One does not mean "single". It means the harmony of two.
Here is a simple metaphor
If man is the color blue and Eve the color Red. God is the color purple.
Red and blue are both in the color purple.
For # 3. I need to make a separate post. It would make this one too long
Are you saying that God created Satan and created evil ?
Rev 12:7-9....that ancient serpent....was thrown down....and his angels were thrown down with him.
Why was Lucifer cast down if he was doing God's will
If God created evil, ther is now an eternal duality of God and Evil
that wil never end.
A God of Love cannot create evil
I will go over the fall another time.
OK
If someone is one with God, he will do God's will. If someone is not one with God, especially fallen man, he will not do God's will.
Jesus said in John 8:44-45
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not.
If you look at the world, God's will is rarely done. Man has two masters.
He is divided
17th Angel
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Can you explain this to me.... They call god the father because he created us, and has authority over us and so on and blah blah blah...... So.... If you give this title also to Satan isn't that giving him the same allowances?
Dondi
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soliel said:
I'm sorta on board with soliel on this point.
Adam and Eve could have frolocked in the fields of Eden indefinitely, but they wouldn't have learned much. How would God know if Adam and Eve are truly loving Him back with all of their heart.
Or look at it another way. Suppose you are a parent of a young child. And of course you love this child with all your heart. And so you give a warning to the child not to touch the hot electric stove because he will get burned. Well, the child looks at the stove and he sees it's not red hot, like when it is turned all the way up. So in his mind, he's very curious. The commandment not to touch the stove drove that curiousity. Is he going to touch it to see if Mom was right? Now Mom doesn't want to see him get burned. But one day when she's not looking, the kid goes and touches the stove. Of course, he ends up crying and in pain because he the tip of his index finger now has 2nd degree burns. Mom comforts the child and dresses his wound and give him a hug and kiss. Now the kid knows why Mom gave that warning, so his inclination is to obey.
winner08 said:
But God didn't create us to be a machine. He created us to love.
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soleil10
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Our real father is God, but Satan usurped the father's role. Therefore, Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires."
God is not just feeling happy and wonderful; on the contrary, His plight is a deeply sad one. He has been mistreated and is overflowing with bitter grief.
How grieved God was that Satan deprived Him of His throne! His history of sorrow at not being able to become the God of glory. Although He is the King of the universe, He has been mistreated.
He was robbed of His ideal and His loving children and our world has fully become His enemy's plaything.
God could have judged the entire world and even Satan by His all-knowing and almighty authority. Even though He is capable of pronouncing judgment, He still could not do so even if He wanted to.
No parents in the world would want their son or daughter to die, even if he or she were hanged for a crime. If saving the child is even remotely possible, the parental heart will seek out the way, even a hundred or a thousand times.
How great is God's love? If Jesus forgives people seventy times seven times, God forgive seventy times seven thousand times. That is God's heart.
God's providence of salvation to prepare for a Messiah started from Adam and Eve because they were the perpetrators of the Fall.
If Adam and Eve had not fallen, God the Creator would have been the eternal Lord. But due to the Fall, Satan became the lord of the world. This became unavoidable.
If a girl of noble birth, who was raised within the walls of her house, is violated by an intruder, to whom is she bound? She will be bound to him. This is what happened with the Fall.
Adam could have been the king of heaven and Eve his queen.
That is why God had to bring order through the providence of salvation.
Many people today think of God as a glorious judge dispatching people to hell or heaven. But God is the most miserable of all in the world. He has bitterly struggled to overcome what made the luminous heaven and earth fall into the darkness of hell.
God is intent on giving rebirth to His dead children otherwise, it would all have ended.
God as the Creator could not interfere with or bear responsibility for digesting an event that could not have happened in the original world of creation.
Even Satan has to return to his original position. God does even love his enemy.
Jesus was victorious over Satan. Now it is up to each one of us.
Amica
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Peace--
I have asked myself such a question many times. But I tend to forget that me as a human being am not perfect and will never be. I am not intended to know all the answers to every mystery of life. Satan tempted first humans with his lie about 'being like' God. We can never be.
In my religion, God Almighty tells us that He created humans and other creation just to serve Him. When He decided to create us, He wanted to reveal Himself. When He told the angels that He will create humans, the angels asked: Even if they shed their own blood and make mischief on Earth? and God replied: "You do not know what I know." There is a purpose to everything. Just because we are unable to grasp it, does not mean that there is no purpose. Perhaps we are example of His power, regardless of how sinful we might be, because after all--whether we believe in Him or not, we will return to Him and we depend on Him.
Since God is Merciful, I believe, He allows people to choose to believe in Him. While He certainly can change us, I believe we must be open/willing for it to happen. After all, is not the free will love more beautiful than the forced one?
An imam told me a story once (I am not sure how true it is, but it may hold some substance). It says that when all creation before it was made into being was asked if they wanted the test of the free will, all but the man decided not to take the chance. Therefore, the angels, the universe, the nature is following His Laws in accordance without the free will, except us humans. We chose to be tested, the story says.
I have asked myself such a question many times. But I tend to forget that me as a human being am not perfect and will never be. I am not intended to know all the answers to every mystery of life. Satan tempted first humans with his lie about 'being like' God. We can never be.
In my religion, God Almighty tells us that He created humans and other creation just to serve Him. When He decided to create us, He wanted to reveal Himself. When He told the angels that He will create humans, the angels asked: Even if they shed their own blood and make mischief on Earth? and God replied: "You do not know what I know." There is a purpose to everything. Just because we are unable to grasp it, does not mean that there is no purpose. Perhaps we are example of His power, regardless of how sinful we might be, because after all--whether we believe in Him or not, we will return to Him and we depend on Him.
Since God is Merciful, I believe, He allows people to choose to believe in Him. While He certainly can change us, I believe we must be open/willing for it to happen. After all, is not the free will love more beautiful than the forced one?
An imam told me a story once (I am not sure how true it is, but it may hold some substance). It says that when all creation before it was made into being was asked if they wanted the test of the free will, all but the man decided not to take the chance. Therefore, the angels, the universe, the nature is following His Laws in accordance without the free will, except us humans. We chose to be tested, the story says.
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
The machine doesn't have free will, so it must be the creator's fault.
Here's a question for you though: A man and a woman get together and have a baby, and that baby grows up to be a man, and that man is a real a**hole. Who's fault is it: the parents, or the man?
Everything changes when free will is added into the equation.
I think I'm basically in agreement with Soleil and Dondi and, I think, Amica. I see a big difference between innocense and righteousness. When my son was first born and he just lay on the livingroom floor being quiet because that's all he knew how to do (that and drool), I didn't credit his quietness to him as righteousness; he was behaving himself by default. Now my son is coming up to two years old, and he's starting to understand the difference between right and wrong. When he behaves himself because he's trying to be good, or when he misbehaves himself and when corrected says sorry and tries to make amends with a kiss, I credit him as being a good boy.
Innocense (Adam and Eve): Behaving yourself because you don't know how to misbehave.
Righteousness (Jesus): Behaving yourself because you know the difference between right and wrong, and choose right.
I'd rather be like Jesus than Adam and Eve, and I'm pretty sure that God is more impressed by one moment of genuine righteousness than he is of a month of drooling innocense!
Well Marsh, I will get trashed on this but Yes God did create evil. as He created everything in the universe.Nothing was made that He did not make. This includes evil. Now Just because God created evil doesn't mean He is evil. It is just the oppisite. God is love pure and simple.
Remember I said that I believe in the words that make up scripture. Here's the words that make up this scripture that proves that God did create evil. Isaiah 45:7 I formed the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity (evil) (Strongs hebrew and greek dictionary) calamity-evil.
I the Lord do all these things. Like I said many time before first one has to believe that scripture is the inspiered word of God. If one believes that Isaiah 45:7 is God's words and God does not lie, and God does not change, Then His words are not lies and His words do not change. Therefore God created Evil. Just as the scripture says. Like I said before Just cause God created evil does ot make him evil. God is pure love. God uses Satan and his ways for divine purpose. They have many verses in the Bible showing the different ways that God uses Satan for His purposes. I would have to start a new thread on all the different ways God uses evil for His divine purposes. Check out Job, how God uses satan for His purpose.
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soleil10
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Did God create Satan and did the fall of humanity reflect God's plan ? Some point to Isaiah 45:7. However Genesis 1:31 says that God created all things and that all things were very good. If so we can conclude that"satan" is a post-corrupted identity tag. Before he was hurled to the ground (Rev 12:9). he enjoyed a position and status as a heavenly being wih an original tag of heavenly identity.
The idea that goodness was corrupted and transformed to evil is the overwhelming trend documented in the scriptures.
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Gen 6:5-6