A theological/philosophical question concerning Thomas Aquinas

[stranger]

Fair enough. I was thinking yesterday, and I think the term 'substance' is the trick one, as we use it, the Ancients used it, but we tend to think of it in modern terms ...

I think 'substance' is an unnecessary term that can lead to misunderstanding. I've been looking at Aquinas, for example, and if we're talking about 'substance', we'd have to factor in 'essence' and 'subsistence' and 'nature' and all manner of philosophical technical terms ... As we're not, I'm inclined to think the term 'substance' is redundant.

Yes, but were you looking at Aquinas pre-straw or post-straw? I'm more interested in experiencing what happened post-straw. Pre-straw is just too hard for me, I'm just going to have to hit the post-straw easy button.

 

[Thomas]

Yes, but were you looking at Aquinas pre-straw or post-straw?

Sadly St Thomas was dead within a few months of his 'straw' comments ... not much to see between December 1273 and March 1274.

 

[stranger]

Sadly St Thomas was dead within a few months of his 'straw' comments ... not much to see between December 1273 and March 1274.

I would still have to choose it because the ground after the straw comments was a more pure, truer ground. Perhaps it came to St. Thomas off and on and then finally near the end of his life with undeniable certaintly. It's actually come to me now, and I want to take that next step but I don't know how. All is not a bed of roses for me here now and many things hang in doubt.

If I just opened the gate a little more here now perhaps a lot more would come flooding out. Suffice it to say, I have destroyed myself through an entire life of ignorance and sin and now I face that "tower of destruction" as it is represented by that specific arcanum in the Meditations On the Tarot. I'd like to live again, I'd like just one more chance, but to be honest I am afraid. I know it will be painful and that I will be put in a vulnerable position. I won't be able to defend myself.

My choice is going to be to push ahead. My worst fear is that once I put it all out there I will be left holding the bag. This happened to me once before, there was a situation I was called into and I had to give all. But near the end, after being hammered by temptations I can't even go into here and because of my affections for the one I was called to help, I stepped out of my bounds and attempted to possess this person for my own.

I had given my best but in the end I was weak. This is all true. I'm just testing the waters here, I can write a little more if you are open to it. I keep most of the details under wraps, no need in getting into those I think. Things can be accomplished without my humiliation and besides that's just not the way God does things anyway. I think He's looking for "just enough", not a total destruction of a person (namely me). I'm all in here, I have a stake. I don't come away unscathed. It all looks like pain to me, but perhaps, just perhaps, God loves me and I am not a lost cause.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would still have to choose it because the ground after the straw comments was a more pure, truer ground. Perhaps it came to St. Thomas off and on and then finally near the end of his life with undeniable certaintly. It's actually come to me now, and I want to take that next step but I don't know how.

I don't think that St. Thomas was saying that everything he had written was rubbish. On the contrary, he left it in the hands of the church.
i.e. it was no longer his responsibility.

I'd like just one more chance, but to be honest I am afraid. I know it will be painful and that I will be put in a vulnerable position. I won't be able to defend myself..

There are always plenty of tests in life whichever way we turn. The thing is, religious knowledge gives us the good in this world AND the next. What is the reward of goodness except goodness?

I think He's looking for "just enough", not a total destruction of a person (namely me). I'm all in here, I have a stake. I don't come away unscathed. It all looks like pain to me, but perhaps, just perhaps, God loves me and I am not a lost cause.

Absolutely, Almighty God has no desire to overburden anybody. He only wishes good for us.
The most important "piece" of us is our heart ! If all we did was have an intention, and failed to act on it
for some reason, then God knows that. How can "the Fairest of All judges" be unjust? He obviously cannot be.
We are only required to try, and love God with all our heart. With hardship comes ease.

Their reward with their Lord will be Gardens of Eden, under which rivers flow, to stay there for ever and ever.
God is is pleased with them .. and they are pleased with Him. This is in store for those who fear their Lord.
- Qur'an The Clear Proof -

 

[stranger]

I don't think that St. Thomas was saying that everything he had written was rubbish. On the contrary, he left it in the hands of the church.
i.e. it was no longer his responsibility.

No, only rubbish by way of comparison: below (straw), above... things so wonderful that they have never entered into the heart of man? Yes, I think so.

There are always plenty of tests in life whichever way we turn. The thing is, religious knowledge gives us the good in this world AND the next. What is the reward of goodness except goodness?

Yes, but what a spectacle! You have men (mankind, everyone), you have angels of all stripes, you have the spirit which is in man (actually angel-like but even more powerful). You have the physicality and consciousness of mankind, unable to walk within the spirit world, only sense it's presence from time to time. You have, lets say, good and bad angels (although this is very black and white). You have the Almighty One, and you also have an angel of rare beauty and power who opposes him.

Now this Prince Lucifer (I use the best term I can think of that conveys my deep respect), among angels was of very high rank and very close in resonance with God. Only God contained within himself that perfect resonance, that which no angel had ever been given. This was beyond all created things and was very God. This resonance can never be struck by any created thing. It belongs only to the uncreated -- without beginning and without end.

Absolutely, Almighty God has no desire to overburden anybody. He only wishes good for us.
The most important "piece" of us is our heart ! If all we did was have an intention, and failed to act on it
for some reason, then God knows that. How can "the Fairest of All judges" be unjust? He obviously cannot be.
We are only required to try, and love God with all our heart. With hardship comes ease.

Their reward with their Lord will be Gardens of Eden, under which rivers flow, to stay there for ever and ever.
God is is pleased with them .. and they are pleased with Him. This is in store for those who fear their Lord.
- Qur'an The Clear Proof -

I almost get the feeling you are pleased with me too!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Now this Prince Lucifer (I use the best term I can think of that conveys my deep respect), among angels was of very high rank and very close in resonance with God. Only God contained within himself that perfect resonance, that which no angel had ever been given. This was beyond all created things and was very God. This resonance can never be struck by any created thing. It belongs only to the uncreated -- without beginning and without end.

You might find this upsetting, because it is not how I understand it to be.
Lucifer is called Iblees in the Qur'an, and he is like a human in as much as he has a soul similar to ours, but is not made of clay .. he is made of fire [ jinn .. where the fictional genie of the lamp is derived in Arabian nights ].

Angels, that are made of light, cannot disobey God, they are his perfect servants.

eg. "And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them"
- famous nativity account -

However, jinns are a species/race as we are. They can choose to obey or disobey God. Iblees was a saint, and he spent his time with the angels. When Almighty God created mankind, He told the angels to "bow down to Adam" .. of course they all did .. but not Iblees.
he arrogantly replied "Why should I bow down to Adam when I am made of fire, and he is made of mere clay?
i.e. he was envious

Make of it what you will..

I almost get the feeling you are pleased with me too!

I am pleased FOR you. That's the trouble with translations .. they do not always carry the correct connotations

 

[stranger]

You might find this upsetting, because it is not how I understand it to be.
Lucifer is called Iblees in the Qur'an, and he is like a human in as much as he has a soul similar to ours, but is not made of clay .. he is made of fire [ jinn .. where the fictional genie of the lamp is derived in Arabian nights ].

Define "similar"?

Angels, that are made of light, cannot disobey God, they are his perfect servants.

Angels that are made of light, yes. (Remain within their resonance)

eg. "And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them"
- famous nativity account -

Broken hearted angels are always alone... Oh, sorry. Yes, well, good story.

However, jinns are a species/race as we are. They can choose to obey or disobey God. Iblees was a saint, and he spent his time with the angels. When Almighty God created mankind, He told the angels to "bow down to Adam" .. of course they all did .. but not Iblees.
he arrogantly replied "Why should I bow down to Adam when I am made of fire, and he is made of mere clay?
i.e. he was envious

Make of it what you will..

What's next, the 99 names of Lucifer? Should be good.

I am pleased FOR you. That's the trouble with translations .. they do not always carry the correct connotations

Indeed...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Define "similar"?

Alright then .. the SAME as ours
I think that the equivalent of jinn is a spirit or ghost [ demon ].
Black magic is often explained by this type of concept/creature.

However, if one is filled with the Holy Spirit, one has protection from these kinds of evil.
There are also good jinn. Some people try to communicate with them to know more about the "unseen".
I'm not in favour of that sort of thing. Who knows what one might be "calling up"

What's next, the 99 names of Lucifer? Should be good.

Definitely not. We need to know about our enemies, but All Power is with God alone.

 

[stranger]

Alright then .. the SAME as ours
I think that the equivalent of jinn is a spirit or ghost.
Black magic is often explained by this type of concept/creature.

Okay.

However, if one is filled with the Holy Spirit, one has protection from these kinds of evil.
There are also good jinn. Some people try to communicate with them to know more about the "unseen".

First covers second.

I'm not in favour of that sort of thing. Who knows what one might be "calling up"

Probably something that grows on you after awhile.

 

[stranger]

However, jinns are a species/race as we are. They can choose to obey or disobey God. Iblees was a saint, and he spent his time with the angels. When Almighty God created mankind, He told the angels to "bow down to Adam" .. of course they all did .. but not Iblees.
he arrogantly replied "Why should I bow down to Adam when I am made of fire, and he is made of mere clay?
i.e. he was envious

Why envy though? Iblees had everything he needed. And what was he missing about Adam (of clay only?) Oh, okay, Iblees saw something special about Adam that he himself did not possess, something "other" hidden beneath the clay? Could it have been Eve? *shrug*

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why envy though? Iblees had everything he needed. And what was he missing about Adam (of clay only?) Oh, okay, Iblees saw something special about Adam that he himself did not possess, something "other" hidden beneath the clay? Could it have been Eve? *shrug*

I think it is something to do with status? The nature of our souls?
The notion of "bow down" is to serve. That means that while the angels had no difficulty whatsoever in
serving mankind, i.e. being subservient, iblees rebelled due to pride and arrogance.

He was used to being the "apple of God's eye", but when Adam came along, he saw a rival.
..so he fell from grace, and he realised that that due to mankind, he'd been robbed of his eternal bliss.

I think the notion of "cut off your nose to spite your face" describes his state of mind.
he knows that he is destroying himself, but he's so furious that he can't help it.
Anger is very destructive. When one talks about "God's wrath", it is not the same thing at all.
That is more about "what is apparent".

Controlled anger is more about concern. When a parent is angry with their child, they do not mean harm.
It is satan that encourages destruction.

 

[stranger]

I think it is something to do with status? The nature of our souls?
The notion of "bow down" is to serve. That means that while the angels had no difficulty whatsoever in
serving mankind, i.e. being subservient, iblees rebelled due to pride and arrogance.

He was used to being the "apple of God's eye", but when Adam came along, he saw a rival.
..so he fell from grace, and he realised that that due to mankind, he'd been robbed of his eternal bliss.

It's sad to me. If he could have only trusted... but I do understand. Isn't becoming of secondary importance to someone we love a great temptation for anyone? And yet, it is a lesson to be learned to not be attached to our position within the hierarchy. Just trust. Perhaps it points to some preexistent flaw within Iblees? Or was it simply freewill all along?

I think the notion of "cut off your nose to spite your face" describes his state of mind.
he knows that he is destroying himself, but he's so furious that he can't help it.
Anger is very destructive. When one talks about "God's wrath", it is not the same thing at all.
That is more about "what is apparent".

Yes, and that is a bitter pill to have to swallow throughout eternity. Life is pain sometimes. Perhaps we are a battleground where the fall and redemption play themselves out over and over again in various ways.

Controlled anger is more about concern. When a parent is angry with their child, they do not mean harm.
It is satan that encourages destruction.

Yes, he can't stop. So very sad... I wouldn't like being in that position for a long time. I'll add something a bit controversial, sorry: Does not God's heart ache for this wayward being?

I don't want to carry that level of pain but I see how destroyed inside he is... There is no emoji for it. No words, no human being is sufficient to contain the pain, the longing, involved here. The ache is beyond description.

Can God's heart not be moved? I say that it is moved. However, Iblees might never know this until his role is fulfilled. It's heavy.

Does he turn his anger upon himself also? Does he not know, feel, that anything he touches will be destroyed? That the curse will follow him always. Does he not long for the God he harmed? And yet, he looks at the depth of his ruin, the agony of his condition, and is shattered by the distance, the dirtiness of his hands, the gap now much too wide. He can't die, he can only suffer. He is now pain, he is now sorrow.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's sad to me. If he could have only trusted... but I do understand. Isn't becoming of secondary importance to someone we love a great temptation for anyone? And yet, it is a lesson to be learned to not be attached to our position within the hierarchy. Just trust. Perhaps it points to some preexistent flaw within Iblees? Or was it simply freewill all along?

Good question. Yet I think it applies to all of us. Look at the mess we've got in the middle east, with each nation claiming they are the favoured ones of God etc.

Does not God's heart ache for this wayward being?

We have a quandary .. Almighty God knows the fate of iblees, and that he and those that follow him are responsible for trying to destroy God's Glory for the whole of eternity.

The whole problem of comprehension derives from our concept of God.
If we imagine Him as a perfect being, that is literally judging people and sending them here or there, we get a feeling of injustice for ANYone to be in hell forever.

I again refer to the person in prison [ prison is not very nice ! ], who just carries on in his hell and if anything,
gets WORSE over time. Why does he not repent of his wrongdoing? Is he crazy or what?

 

[stranger]

Good question. Yet I think it applies to all of us. Look at the mess we've got in the middle east, with each nation claiming they are the favoured ones of God etc.



We have a quandary .. Almighty God knows the fate of iblees, and that he and those that follow him are responsible for trying to destroy God's Glory for the whole of eternity.

The whole problem of comprehension derives from our concept of God.
If we imagine Him as a perfect being, that is literally judging people and sending them here or there, we get a feeling of injustice for ANYone to be in hell forever.

I again refer to the person in prison [ prison is not very nice ! ], who just carries on in his hell and if anything,
gets WORSE over time. Why does he not repent of his wrongdoing? Is he crazy or what?

Crazy, yes. But if only you could see, feel, the ruin inside. One might ask this or that of him, but he knows he has lost the ability for action. One does not bootstrap their way out such a depth of ruin and heartache. How can he repent?

 

[muhammad_isa]

One does not bootstrap their way out such a depth of ruin and heartache. How can he repent?

Yes .. that is it .. how can he repent .. he has missed his chance.

As I say, if we imagine that God is "somebody" with a magic wand, that puts souls in heaven or hell at his discretion,
that is the concept of God one holds.

It is similar to the person that claims God is responsible for all evil, and ignores the fact that they also have the responsibility for their actions.
Mankind wrong their own souls. Almighty God wants us to listen. Our obedience is for our own benefit [ individually and collectively ], in as much as Almighty God is not in need of our obedience and worship.
How can an Infinite, Powerful God be in need of anything?

 

[stranger]

Yes .. that is it .. how can he repent .. he has missed his chance.

As I say, if we imagine that God is "somebody" with a magic wand, that puts souls in heaven or hell at his discretion,
that is the concept of God one holds.

It is similar to the person that claims God is responsible for all evil, and ignores the fact that they ALSO have the responsibility for their actions.
Mankind wrong their own souls. Almighty God wants us to listen. Our obedience is for our own benefit [ individually and collectively ], in as much as Almighty God is not in need of our obedience and worship.
How can an Infinite, Powerful God be in need of anything?

All very true, but does He not need us? He needs to love us? Because it is the nature of love to always reach out to the hopelessly lost. Does it have some end? Some beginning? No, I don't think so. Can pain be removed? Can it be healed? Cannot God call to the grave and say release him? Will not much of what causes his heart to ache disappear? Will there not be new life, better life? I believe so.

Son of man, can these bones live? "Lord, you know."

 

[muhammad_isa]

All very true, but does He not need us? He needs to love us?

No, Almighty God is of an infinite nature. How can one love something that is eternally responsible for destruction?
We don't know the fate of a particular human being, but HE DOES !

Because it is the nature of love to always reach out to the hopelessly lost..

Of course, the lost souls that turn to Him will NEVER be turned away.
..but is that the nature of eternal reality? The Bible says not. It teaches that some will be in eternal hell forever.
Personally, I can see how that might happen. I don't believe that everybody that gets "life imprisonment"
will repent. That is just how it is. It is how I perceive reality.

 

[stranger]

No, Almighty God is of an infinite nature. How can one love something that is eternally responsible for destruction?
We don't know the fate of a particular human being, but HE DOES !

Then we return to the divine ignorance, knowing nothing. It's easy, the burden is light. Just toss it all, rest in the everlasting arms.

Of course, the lost souls that turn to Him will NEVER be turned away.
..but is that the nature of eternal reality? The Bible says not. It teaches that some will be in eternal hell forever.
Personally, I can see how that might happen. I don't believe that everybody that gets "life imprisonment"
will repent. That is just how it is. It is how I perceive reality.

Then let God perceive reality for you. That's all that is necessary. Stop carrying all those scruples and just let God take over, he does it better than we do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@stranger
The important thing about the Catholic doctrine of eternal hell is this.
Only GOD KNOWS who will be in hell forever .. nobody else, not even ourselves.

What this means is simply that God knows who will and who will not repent.
i.e. which souls are beyond redemption .. permenentally damaged

OK .. you argue that God can just "blot them out".
Can Almighty God blot Himself out?

I think that there is a certain amount of illogicality in some Christian belief.
eg. the old chestnut "Can God lift a rock that is larger than he can carry?"

It is a stupid question, of course.

 

[stranger]

@stranger
The important thing about the Catholic doctrine of eternal hell is this.
Only GOD KNOWS who will be in hell forever .. nobody else, not even ourselves.

What this means is simply that God knows who will and who will not repent.
i.e. which souls are beyond redemption .. permenentally damaged

OK .. you argue that God can just "blot them out".
Can Almighty God blot Himself out?

I think that there is a certain amount of illogicality in some Christian belief.
eg. the old chestnut "Can God lift a rock that is larger than he can carry?"

It is a stupid question, of course.

Answer: never, and that's a good thing, a restful thing.
We don't have to carry it all. So, we trust in God's knowing. Are there any more loving hands than his?