A theological/philosophical question concerning Thomas Aquinas

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No, of course not. Almighty God is The Loving One .. The Ever-Wise .. The Most Merciful.
    ..and that is right .. we don't have to carry responsibility for other people's fate .. it is not in our hands.
    Though we do have a responsibility to convey what we understand to be the truth. Not to hide it for personal gain.

    Half of faith is our optimistic hope in God's Mercy, and the other half to fear his warnings.
     
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  2. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    But I thought God's very own uncreated substance (the spirit) is within us? Is it enough to hope in God's mercy and fear his warnings once one has entered into hell? Will God only chide, or will he carry the burden of that one who finds himself in the grip of hell?

    I got this from another post here on this thread: I think that there is a certain amount of illogicality in some Christian belief. eg. the old chestnut "Can God lift a rock that is larger than he can carry?"

    So... if one judges (lifts), one must also be able to carry (suffer as a sacrifice for). Otherwise the judging is hypocritical, is it not? According to the law of love, if one wounds he must also be able to heal. Just different words for the same thing. What say you, muhammad Isa, you have judged Iblees, can you now carry? Or must someone carry you as well, someone who is able to back up their words with spiritual power?

    All rhetorical here, of course, we're just sort of role-playing. Just wanted to see how you view sacrificial love.
     
  3. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Well, I believe in the Catholic doctrine of eternal hell. It states that one needs to repent before death.
    However, a person who believes in God, and has avoided committing major sins has no need of repentance, surely?

    I also believe in the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. You see .. I really AM a Christian :D
    That states that "purgatory is a temporary condition for the purification of souls who, although destined for Heaven,
    are not fully detached from sin and thus cannot enter Heaven immediately".

    I would have thought, that that would apply to most of us [ at least, I feel it applies to me :( ]
    ..so yes, of course Almighty God's Mercy does not ever finish. It is eternal.
    The way I envisage spiritual existence is that God wants for mankind to have a perfect society on earth.
    Divine guidance shows us how to achieve that, and that focusing on a life hereafter rather than on the material is the way.

    I envisage that death is not final. Our spiritual path after death is a continuation of the here and now.
    born --------> learn ----------> live -------------> die ------------------> [the soul never dies] ------------------>

    The answer to the above question is as C.S. Lewis has said:

    He argues that when talking about omnipotence, referencing "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle"; that it is not logically coherent in terms of power to think that omnipotence includes the power to do the logically impossible. So asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?"

    A question that is not coherent has no logical answer !
    [ other than showing it to be incoherent, of course]

    See my replies above re purgatory..

    We all need "carrying" .. we all need Almighty God.

    I have not judged Iblees. I merely explained to you some of the concept of how satan originated and how evil
    manifests according to my understanding .. which mainly derives from the Qur'an.

    Almighty God is the sole judge of all creatures that have free-will eg. mankind and jiinn
    However, we KNOW the final destination of satan .. God teaches us [via scripture] that he will be in eternal hell.
    Not that God literally judges and "put him there" .. he put himself there. God sees with his omniscience that he is
    there for eternity. You tell me why he "wants" to stay there. [*see next post]


    That is an important teaching. For somebody to be tricked by satan to think that there is no eternal hell is
    the first step in a series of many, which puts us in grave danger.

    I think that we are all capable of understanding that. A parent often acts in a manner which ensures their child
    is "looked after", even if it causes them pain and suffering.
    After all .. we are made in God's image, no? [ our souls can identify with God's attributes ]
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Let's look at it another way.
    There is heaven and there is hell.

    Would it be "heaven" if there were "bad souls" in it? [ rhetorical question ]
    ..so what is a bad soul? One which is treacherous, no?

    Almighty God knows the innermost core of our souls .. they belong to Him.
    He knows who is destined for heaven or hell.
    Now, you might say that as Almighty God is able to do all things, then why can he not
    "repair" satan's soul?

    The only way that I can think of, is by "forcing it" to behave, or removing its free-will.
    I don't think that such a soul is of heaven .. it needs to freely love God, imo.

    The idea of a "fairy tale ending", in which there is no soul that is not saved, is not
    only against what the Bible teaches us, but it is not what we can see in this life either.

    No .. the only way for mankind to succeed is by "separating the wheat from the chaff".
    satan, cannot by definition, ever repent and be in heaven.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  5. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    Well as I think you already know, "There is none good, no not one, they have all gone out of the way, they have altogether become unprofitable." Mankind is fallen. I don't disparage the doctrine venial and deadly sin, but as the writer of the Cloud of Unknowing (himself thoroughly Catholic) came to know, there exists a "lump" from which all sin procedes.

    As long as one has this lump of "fallen" within (and all do) then repentance is necessary. A question could perhaps be asked here, under what conditions might one truly repent? Perhaps divine light illuminating his condition prominently figures in. I suspect he is not truly aware of his condition before that light shines in on it. This is what in my opinion makes repentance possible.

    I have always liked the concept of purgation. Not a place of course but a process which frees the soul. Temporary... Well... It's eternal hell fire (judgement), it's just that there is something in there which cannot be destroyed (the immortal spirit). The judgement is eternal, it will always be there, but it takes only the impurities.

    All, I would think, myself included.


    Lol... I get the feeling you are expressing the views of another as a strawman and giving me the chance to knock them down as a way of humiliating that person. (Which would be a way of insulting two birds with one post. :)) I could be wrong of course. A perfect society on earth, keep it, I don't want it. I long for what's inside the veil, life on a different level.

    You only left out the beginning? Or perhaps the non-beginning: preexistent spirit. Continuation of the here and now? Who would want that? How boring and banal. Haven't we seen enough of it already? I'm not interested in hanging on to the human form (shudder).

    Yes, exactly. I think it still holds in the way I used it.


    Well, in my mind, (and scripture teaches us not to judge) judgement belongs to God because he is the only one capable of redeeming. So, (again the way I look at it) if one is to judge and still be without offense, he must be willing to rescue that one he has judged. Job's friends judged him (and in some ways quite accurately) but they provided no remedy, no answer. In the end the Lord was displeased with them for this reason and a restored Job then had to offer sacrifice for them.


    Once again I have the eerie feeling that I am answering someone else's views and not your own (perhaps a divide and conquer tactic, cancel out two by pitting them against one another?). I don't know, just doesn't smell right. You are a bit sneaky, I think. :)


    Lol. No uncreated spirit there. Nothing to see there, move along. :)
     
  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Right, I think I'd better explain further.
    We all need to be constantly asking for God's forgiveness .. we are all sinners, and we need to acknowledge it.
    What I understand about the concept of repentance is that we might have committed something like murder.
    ..just saying "sorry" is not going to be enough.

    In other words we have to be TRULY sorry, and vow with our hearts not to repeat it ! Swear sincerely and really mean it !
    That is repentance, to me.

    I do agree that smaller sins are accumulative and can lead to bigger ones, but that is another issue.
     
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Ah ! You are differentiating between our lives in this world and the life hereafter .. why would that be?
    If one has a goal of creating what one think might be "the perfect society on earth", then it can't be achieved.
    However, if one submits to the wisdom of God and obeys Him, then it is achievable.

    Incidentally, there is nothing magical about the next life in this respect. There can't be a heaven where its inhabitants
    are all disobeying God. That would be illogical :)

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    - Genesis 1 -

    What makes it "ungood" ? Isn't it satan that is responsible for that?
    What I perceive is that the consequences of mankind having faith produces a society which becomes "good".

    Almighty God says in the Qur'an:

    6 ˹Consider˺ when Moses said to his people, “Remember God’s favour upon you when He rescued you from the people of Pharaoh, who afflicted you with dreadful torment—slaughtering your sons and keeping your women. That was a severe test from your Lord.
    7 And ˹remember˺ when your Lord proclaimed, ‘If you are grateful, I will certainly give you more. But if you are ungrateful, surely My punishment is severe.’”

    - Qur'an Abraham -

    We have to be grateful for what we have been given. We then have a chance that our lives will improve, in this life AND the next.
    I see our spiritual states as being continued when we die.
    Naturally, those that are suffering due to no fault of their own, will be recompensed and made happy,
    ..but the principle still stands. How can there be a heaven in which we are not satisfied with what we have been given?
    The time for thanksgiving starts now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  8. stranger

    stranger wolfwing, a feral angel

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    I know, it's like it gets to a point where sorry is just hollow. The entire ground upon which we stand becomes destroyed and nothing can help now except the feet being set upon new ground. It's hard to explain. One's only hope is the thing that can never be destroyed, love. Love sets the feet upon new ground. It feels sometimes like others don't know what it is like to be shattered inside to the point that there's nothing you can do to help yourself. My hollow words can never fix me. Unless God carries me to new ground I have no hope. A curse works inside me.

    If only it were that easy... but please understand that although I would love to do what you describe here, (it is the right thing, I know it), I no longer have the power to help myself in that way. I simply can't produce it. It's like, yes, that is beautiful, holy, just and good, but I am none of those things and I can never be. There is only this ache, this desire to be good, to be better, but no capacity to perform it.

    This is going to sound strange, but I know what it is like to hit a sin "quota", sort of like I've hit my limit of sin and am being mercifully stopped from going any further. When you've drunk your fill of poison, something dies inside, or it just gets buried deeper. I'm sure I'm not the worst of sinners or the least of them, I just hit my particular limit and am now in a state of ruin. I've exhausted all efforts and am helpless. This is what it is like. I wish I could be everything you want, I would if I could, but I can't. :(
     
  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Are you saying that you have committed grevious sins, such as murder or adultery?
    I am not prying, but if you have, you wouldn't be the first nor the last.
    Almighty God can forgive all sins except praying to false gods. That is why the first commandment is so important.

    That is not true. Anybody who has faith, even if it is low, can eventually overcome satan.

    No, I don't believe that :)
    Almighty God is powerful. He is able to do what He likes.
    Isn't God the best of all helpers?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No? You can't see it?

    You think that if satan is in "burning fire" that he will want to come out, and will be prepared to make sincere repentance?
    I don't know .. I believe what the Bible and the Qur'an says on this issue .. it makes sense to me.
    I see exactly the same sort of behaviour in this life.

    You envisage a worldy prison as being different. Perhaps you think that the punishment is not harsh enough,
    and that if they were whipped they would then see the error of their ways?
    No .. you probably don't think that way, do you.

    Why one person sees the light and acknowledges it, and another person doesn't, God only knows.
     

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