Christianity without Judas

[wil]

Thomas made a statement that the last supper was really more akin to a bachelors party for the bridegroom. If that is the case his preparations to leave this plane of existence are even more plain.

Which made me yet again contemplate Judas's role.

Many folks don't want to think of Judas as anything but evil and led by the devil despite the major role he played in forming Christianity as we know it today.

So this thread is for contemplation of what Christianity would have looked like without Judas, without the Crucifiction and Resurection.

Now in my mind as the story goes if Jesus were to just have transcended just raised up to heaven...that is not nearly as powerful an experience or story as the one we have. We can name a number of folks in the bible that did that. So Judas played a pivotal role, or did he?

What would you see as Christianity without Judas?

 

[Dondi]

Actually, before I delve into that prospect, I'd like to address the issue with Judas. I don't think believe Judas started out as bad as people paint him to be. I believe in the beginning when he was called out by Jesus, he was a fervent believer in what Christ represented. I mean he went out with the rest of the disciples and performed miracles in His Name. But I also think that Judas thought the Kingdom of God would be established right then and there, with Jesus eventually proclaiming Himself King. It was only after Jesus began to speak of being delivered up to be crucified that Judas began to turn. I think that bit of news got him disillusioned and confused. Jesus was not what he expected Him to be. And maybe he got a bit miffed at Jesus for letting him believe that He would overthrow the the current regime and take over, but that wasn't to be. So Judas by this time was looking for an out. And I can understand when he went to the chief priests and scribes that they may have further influenced him that Jesus was a bad idea for Israel, in light of the Roman oppression. The attraction of the thirty pieces of silver was that he could break from the movement and start over somewhere else, possibly with the Zealots, a move he would later regret.

I believe that even without Judas, Jesus would have eventually been crucified or killed in some way. Jesus even asked those who were about to arrest Him why they didn't do so earlier, since they could have done so when He preached in the synagogues. But the consistent reason all throughout the Gospels was for fear of the multitude. So it was a matter of convenience, since He was arrested, tried, and sentenced to be crucified in the space of one night and one morning, away for the most part from the faithful crowd, while the sheep were scattered. It happened so quickly that any resistance from the faithful would have been ill-advised. Add to the fact that the Passover Sabbath was nigh, the matter would be dealt with swiftly and conveniently.

You are asking if there was no crucifixion or resurrection. And you are supposing that if Judas wasn't involved, then Jesus would not have been killed. I would have to disagree. As Messiah, He would have had to do what Judas had expected, overthrow the current government and established His Kingdom. But it wasn't His purpose to bring the Kingdom by force, but rather induce into the hearts of the people the 'spirit' ofthe kingdom. That's why He taught the was He did. To show compassion to all, to love one another and love your enemies, trun the other cheek, forgive one another, all that. Because before one could lead, the hearts of the followers must follow.

He already told them that John would be Elijah to come, if they received him, but of course they didn't. This is in reference to Malachi 4:5-6 in which Elijah would turn the hearts of the fathers to their sons and vice versa, 'lest I come and smite the earth with a curse'. So now we wait for Jesus to come back, not in any meek fashion as before, but in all the power and glory of God. But before He does, the real Elijah will come to prepare the way (Rev. 11:3-12)

 

[Nick_A]

Thomas made a statement that the last supper was really more akin to a bachelors party for the bridegroom. If that is the case his preparations to leave this plane of existence are even more plain.

Which made me yet again contemplate Judas's role.

Many folks don't want to think of Judas as anything but evil and led by the devil despite the major role he played in forming Christianity as we know it today.

So this thread is for contemplation of what Christianity would have looked like without Judas, without the Crucifiction and Resurection.

Now in my mind as the story goes if Jesus were to just have transcended just raised up to heaven...that is not nearly as powerful an experience or story as the one we have. We can name a number of folks in the bible that did that. So Judas played a pivotal role, or did he?

What would you see as Christianity without Judas?

Without Christianity as it is including Judas' role, it just becomes another feel good modern religion.

 

[Dream]

I could see Christianity without Judas, although he fills an important place. The marital nuptials idea is very robust, too. It is referred to as the marriage supper of the lamb. Judas can be thought of as fulfilling some prophecies but not necessarily.

 

[Thomas]

Christianity without Judas is like Christianity without man.

The Fathers used to ask if the Incarnation of the Logos of God would have been necessary if Adam had not fallen, and there was some debate on the matter ... but eventually the answer comes out as 'yes', as the humanity assumed by God is the means by which humanity might ascend to God (else we end up with a world, a body, etc., which is disposable and of no consequence).

If yes, then would the Incarnate Son have to die on the Cross?
No.

But all that is speculation ... man is what man is, and because man is who he is, the cross is an inescapable inevitability.

Thomas

 

[Marsh]

Thomas made a statement that the last supper was really more akin to a bachelors party for the bridegroom. If that is the case his preparations to leave this plane of existence are even more plain.

Which made me yet again contemplate Judas's role.

Many folks don't want to think of Judas as anything but evil and led by the devil despite the major role he played in forming Christianity as we know it today.

So this thread is for contemplation of what Christianity would have looked like without Judas, without the Crucifiction and Resurection.

Now in my mind as the story goes if Jesus were to just have transcended just raised up to heaven...that is not nearly as powerful an experience or story as the one we have. We can name a number of folks in the bible that did that. So Judas played a pivotal role, or did he?

What would you see as Christianity without Judas?

If Judas hadn't have betrayed Jesus, somebody else would have. Jesus wasn't murdered because God orchestrated the whole thing as part of a little sideshow; Jesus' murder is a statement of what society really is: evil.

This is what gives me such a kick out of the way everyone oooohed and ahhhhhed over Obama when he took office, like he was going to be some great and wonderful and perfect leader. You don't become President of the United States, or any country, without getting blood on your hands. Sure, we'd all love to believe that our leaders (and, by extension, the society they come from) are essentially good, but the prime ingredient for success in any civilization has always been ambition, and ambition thrives on power. Jesus was taking power away from the establishment; he was bound to be murdered for it.

 

[iBrian]

I tend to find Anglicans (through speaking to them and reading texts a while back) never see Judas as evil, as much as misguided.

Their big suggestion is that Judas never expected Jesus to be killed or similar, but instead that he felt frustrated with the lack of progress and belief, and therefore thought a direct confrontation between Jesus and the Romans which would force Jesus to display his Messianic power outright, triumph, and lead Jerusalem to glory.

It's interesting because when you look at the end of the story Judas feels remorse and kills himself, which is rarely the behaviour of someone consumed with evil intention.

 

[path_of_one]

That's how I see it, Brian. I guess there is a point where I align with my church membership. I think psychologically, Judas thought he was helping the movement along and hurrying it up. I don't think Judas thought Jesus would die, but rather would rise to power. Supernaturally, Judas or the equivalent (some other guy in his role) was required if Jesus was destined for crucifixion and resurrection, and there seems to be some agreement in the text on this.

There are textual clues about this- that Jesus knew Judas would betray him, and that Judas knew that Jesus knew (during the Last Supper). The amount Judas betrayed Jesus for was paltry, and Judas knew it. It was a means to an end, not an end unto itself. Judas betrayed Jesus for higher motives than to get some coins, but whether Judas knew his role was to betray his Lord (in which case, he would be the greatest servant as it would have been agonizing) or whether Judas just thought he was speeding up the process, he does not display the behavior of a person who was evil through and through and figured Jesus' life was worth a little money. His suicide demonstrates that whatever his reasoning, Judas' decision was far more complex that immorality.

 

[Thomas]

What was Judas doing?

He was looking after No1. Taking care of business. Let Jesus carry on as He will, and they'll all end up on a cross, and they all knew it. Didn't Thomas say "Let us also go, that we may die with him!" (John 11:16)

But Judas has worked out another way, a better way, a risky one ... but it might just work ...

What happened in Jerusalem happened the way it did because that's the way human nature is. That's what human nature does. It looks after No1. That's what taking care of business is.

The Sanhedrin saw a popular uprising brewing in the followers of Jesus, whom the people saw as a new David who would throw off the yoke of Roman oppression (benefitting their No1s).

Were such an uprising to take place, the Romans would take swift and decisive action to shut down (for the same reason). The Sanhedrin was tolerated by Rome as a means of keeping the Jews quiet, so from their point of view, his death was a necessity, for the security of all (for the same reason).

As it turned out, it was only by threats against Pilate that the Sanhedrin got him to crucify Jesus. Both parties were politically astute enough to realise they didn't want to be the one responsible for His martyrdom (both looking after No1.).

So Christ died because we were doing what we always do, taking care of business.

We should not make too much of Satan entering Judas. Satan entered Peter when he tried to oppose God's will: "Go behind me, Satan, because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but that are of men" (Mark 8:33), and the same thing is happening here — Judas is trying to determine what Jesus must do ...

What we have is the focus on the drama of everyone ignoring God, and looking out for themselves ... Caiphas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate, Judas, Peter, the disciples, the people, probably the same people who days before were proclaiming His arrival, are now baying for His blood ... not one character emerges from this drama (save for His mother, and perhaps John) of the Passion of Christ as doing anything other than what we always do ... looking after Number One.

And as long as we continue to look after No.1, Satan's got us in his pocket.

There's only one hero in this whole sorry mess, and He's bleeding to death on a Cross, doing what?

He's taking care of business ...

Thomas

 

[soleil10]

If Jesus would have been accepted and if he did not have to go the course of the crucifixion, Jesus would have been able to marry and create the first Godly family on earth not connected to Satan. Jesus had the Godly seed. He was the tree of life. All humanity could have connected through him to God's lineage and separate from Satan's lineage.

Because of the spiritual victory of Jesus on the cross, we can partake spiritually. The vine and bread are symbolic of his blood and body. On the cross Jesus lost much more than his body. He lost his family, God's family. This is the reason, the Messiah, 3rd Adam has to come back and complete God's providence of salvation.

For Judas, Jesus said that it would have been better for him if he had never be born.