Propaganda or truth?

Muslimwoman

Muslimwoman

Coexistence insha'Allah
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as salam aleykum

As I live in Egypt I often give thought to the troubles people following Baha'i teachings face here.

I keep being told here that the teachings say a, b and c so I decided given the level of propaganda on the internet I would come ask .. hope that's ok.

As I'm quite passionate about womens rights I will start with the most difficult questions to ask:

1. Are women now or ever been considered community property? This would include the incest conversation. There appears to have been a statement issued about this on the bic.org website but it's been removed. If so could you put this into context for me please.

2. Do you forbid women to wear any form of hijab?

3. Are women not allowed to inherit property?

I will leave it there as a starter.

I did find this which was a great read (including the comments) but it doesn't actually say this is what our books say about this issue and giving a quote.

A Baha'i Perspective of Islam: Some Old Charges for a New Religion

I'm going to be away for two weeks but look forward to reading any replies on my return.
 
Thanks "Muslimwoman" for your post and welcome to the Baha'i Forum...


Susan Maneck is to me very articulate and the article you site is a good one..

But to your questions:

As I'm quite passionate about womens rights I will start with the most difficult questions to ask:

1. Are women now or ever been considered community property? This would include the incest conversation. There appears to have been a statement issued about this on the bic.org website but it's been removed. If so could you put this into context for me please.

My reply:

I'm really not familiar with what you mentioned about the incest conversation if you mean what Susan is referring to in the article it is indeed laughable .. The only sad thing is that some seriously may believe it I suppose and that is tragic. As to women being "community property" again.. that is indeed so bizarre and incredible.. It reminds me of what some early Roman pagans believed about early Christians that they ate babies or were doing agape orgies..


2. Do you forbid women to wear any form of hijab?

My reply:

When in Muslim countries Baha'i women will adopt the prevailing culture around them in order not to draw undue attention to themselves.. When Baha'is are left to themselves.. They don't wear hijab..

Tahireh you may have heard removed her veil before a conference in Badasht around 1850 and this caused quite a stir among the Babis there... It was a symbolic act which meant the old practices would be abandoned by the followers of the Bab.


3. Are women not allowed to inherit property?

My reply:

Women in the Baha'is Faith can most certainly inherit property and it is provided for also in the Kitab-i-Aqdas..

Some other things about women in the Baha'i Faith..

They are free to take initiative to seek a husband and are free to initiate divorce or dissolve their marriage.

In families with limited means and children need education.. The female children are to be given preference.

Here's a compilation of topics related to women that you might peruse:

http://bahai-library.com/compilations/women/

- Art:)
 
arthra said:
Women in the Baha'is Faith can most certainly inherit property and it is provided for also in the Kitab-i-Aqdas.
Click to expand...

That's interesting - I thought it was raised in an earlier discussion thread that women did not have the same inheritance rights as men, along with the issue that women could not serve at the highest levels of the Baha'i organisation?
 
I said:
That's interesting - I thought it was raised in an earlier discussion thread that women did not have the same inheritance rights as men, along with the issue that women could not serve at the highest levels of the Baha'i organisation?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your post Brian and welcome to the Baha'i Forum..

Well the question was "Are not women allowed to inherit property" and the answer is yes and I cited the Aqdas because there specific provisions for women inheriting property. The provisions are not enforced yet in the Baha'i world and they are provided if someone does not leave a Will.. Anyone can leave a Will and provide for whomever they please. You know what happens today in society if someone doesn't leave a Will? It goes to a court to settle. The Aqdas provides a kind of blanket Will for Baha'is IF they don't leave a Will.

You may be thinking Brian of the Universal House of Justice and that it consists of men.. this is not due however to male chauvenism or the belief men are superior in any way. It has to do with the provisions left to us by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the Interpretation of Abdul-Baha on how to set up a body like the Universal House...In all other institutions..The Counselors and Auxiliary Board Members and in National Assembly Members to the local levels women serve along with men.

We should also note that the defacto head of the Faith between the passing of Abdul-Baha and Guardian Shoghi Effendi was Bahiyyih Khanum who was the daughter of Baha'u'llah and sister of Abdul-Baha..

- Art:)
 
Arthra, does this mean that women specifically cannot inherit on equal terms to men under ordinary conditions? In the UK, the gender of beneficiaries is irrelevant to the courts, as much as the nearest kinship.

Also, if women are excluded from joining the UHJ, how is this not discrimination? Even if religiously proscribed, how is this excluded from any secular accusation that it is institutional sexism?

I know you've quote before a passage about men and women each being like a wing, but I think MW is specifically asking if Baha'is are treated implicitly different according to gender - at the very least, within the specific circumstances mentioned?
 
I, Brian wrote:

Arthra, does this mean that women specifically cannot inherit on equal terms to men under ordinary conditions? In the UK, the gender of beneficiaries is irrelevant to the courts, as much as the nearest kinship.

Hello Brian.. Thanks for your post!

You know you can call me "Art" if you wish :)..

No I don't think "this means that women specifically cannot inherit on equal terms as men under ordinary conditions".

Under ordinary conditions for Baha'is they are required to leave a Will granting to whomever what they want to leave them..

I only raised the issue of dying intestate without a Will to show that the Baha'i law would avoid expensive court costs to people.

Now if in the future a Baha'i did not leave a Will then the provisions of the Aqdas could apply..and these specify varying amounts depending. But again these laws are not enforced as yet in the Baha'i world so we're talking hypothetically.

Because inheritance can be a rather complex issue to study you can review the provisions of the Aqdas yourself at

Kitb-i-Aqdas - Synopsis and Codification

Brian wrote:

Also, if women are excluded from joining the UHJ, how is this not discrimination? Even if religiously proscribed, how is this excluded from any secular accusation that it is institutional sexism?

My reply:

To some people this practise may seem discriminatory or even sexist..

All I can tell you is that only men serve on the House of Justice and the reason is found the provisions of the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the interpretation of Abdul-Baha. My own feeling is that it is not based on say male chauvinism or a belief that men are superior. :)

The House of Justice is elected every five years and deals with issues that are not specifically covered in the Baha'i Writings. Also where questions come up about how various laws are to be implemented the House of Justice can offer it's guidance.

Brian wrote:

I know you've quote before a passage about men and women each being like a wing, but I think MW is specifically asking if Baha'is are treated implicitly different according to gender - at the very least, within the specific circumstances mentioned?

My reply:

Well she's welcome to ask any questions and so are you!

- Art :)
 
All I can tell you is that only men serve on the House of Justice and the reason is found the provisions of the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the interpretation of Abdul-Baha.

can you tell me, then, if this council is like the Holy See? Or is it a legal institution?

cheers,
Francis
 
Francis king said:
All I can tell you is that only men serve on the House of Justice and the reason is found the provisions of the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the interpretation of Abdul-Baha.

can you tell me, then, if this council is like the Holy See? Or is it a legal institution?

cheers,
Francis
Click to expand...

Hello Francis and welcome to the Forum!

I'm not all that well informed about the "Holy See" ... but the House of Justice is for Baha'is a Supreme Institution and so we respect whatever pronouncements or counsel it provides.. It has what is called a conferred infallibility for us.

A brief synopsis is in the wikipedia article:

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also see:

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice

- Art :)
 
Women should be judged on their virtue and ability for this position nothing else.
 
Postmaster said:
Women should be judged on their virtue and ability for this position nothing else.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your post Postmaster and welcome back to the Baha'i Forum!

It's not an issue here of women being judged on their ability for a position.. We are not saying men are superior at all! :)

Abdul-Baha addressed this issue early in the twentieth century (1911):

I hope for a like degree of progress among the women of Europe -- that each may shine like unto a lamp; that they may cry out the proclamation of the kingdom; that they may truly assist the men; nay, that they may be even superior to the men, versed in sciences and yet detached, so that the whole world may bear witness to the fact that men and women have absolutely the same rights. It would be a cause of great joy for me to see such women. This is useful work; by it woman will enter into the kingdom. Otherwise, there will be no results.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 88


- Art
 
Art, I'm curious - why are women excluded from the UHJ? Is there a specific section of text on this explaining why, or is it covered in multiple sources?
 
Brian,

As I pointed out above the House of Justice is based on the revealed text of the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the interpretation of Abdul-Baha.

"O ye Men of Justice! Be ye, in the realm of God, shepherds unto His sheep and guard them from the ravening wolves that have appeared in disguise, even as ye would guard your own sons."

~ Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, para. 52, p. 38

Also here is a response to the issue by the House itself:

Women on the Universal House of Justice

So it is for historic reasons that the House is constituted as it is...to quote the Constitution:

The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá'u'lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and of the Guardian of the Cause - who, after 'Abdu'l-Bahá, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Bahá'í Scripture - constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power.

See:

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice

- Art
 
Thanks for the clarification, Art - much appreciated. :)
 
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