4 Bible verses that support predestination

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. bookends

    bookends New Member

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    I no longer hold this view 100%. I believe their is only one predestined from the beginning of time, who is Christ. All who are in Christ become of that family that God had predestine since the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:5). And that we have limited free will in which God gives us the ability to choose or reject Him. Yes God has the foreknowledge of who would be saved and who would harden their heart, but God wishes all men to come to Him and be saved. I no longer believe that God dooms from the womb. If God caused some unable to repent, then logically He couldn't hold them accountable for the Truth. I'm not going to make a big deal out of this, just going on the record stating my change in position on this matter.

    He predestined us (the whole OT and NT church)to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

    bless you all,
     
  2. Christsgirl33

    Christsgirl33 New Member

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    IowaGuy, Prayer is to align our hearts with God's will not to attempt to change it. We pray for the cancer patient because we do not know God's will but so whatever the outcome may be, in the end our hearts our in alignment with His perfect will.
     
  3. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Free will and destiny are beliefs.

    What you are is ever untouched by any decision, and it never goes anywhere.

    Pre-destiny is a good device to show the absolute inability of the ego to do anything, to create a state of let-go, but this is not how you're using it. You are making a stand based on a belief, thus feeding the ego.

    The only choice that can ever really be made is whether to accept what is happening or reject it, yet the latter only causes suffering so it is not a difficult choice.

    These are simple truths, no scripture need be quoted to see it.
     
  4. JAG

    JAG New Member

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    ......the plan, not the man, is predestined......
     
  5. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    What about daughters?
     
  6. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I'd agree with that. Also I would agree with what Thomas said.

    For the Bible fundamentalists out there, 'Pre-destination' appears mean that something is determined and then caused to happen through effort, rather than something that is observed and then declared. 'Pre' + 'Destination' refers to this principle. No individual is considered indispensable, no matter how important they are. In the Bible something is declared ahead of time, then it is caused to happen by means of the essences of the holy spirit, be they the law or prophets or miracles or other manifestations of the holy spirit. The individuals involved are held responsible for their choices and failure or rewarded for their successes. Statements in Ephesians and other NT books that use the term 'predestination' are easily interpreted in this way.

    Examples:
    2 Kings 19 v 25 "In days of old I planned it...now I have brought it to pass..."
    Isaiah 48:3 "I foretold...then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass..."

    Difficult readings:
    Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen" All of the conversations in Ephesians about predestination explain it in terms of adoption and of predestination 'In Christ'. This is not the same as claiming individual predestinations and pays homage to the way things work in the Bible as a whole. Individuals are still responsible for their activities. A Christian is considered a graft onto the spiritual tree. If they remain in Christ, then they stay on the tree. The tree is predestined, and the Christians are predestined in Christ. If the person leaves Christ, then that is their choice. They are no longer predestined in Christ, and the tree continues without them.
     
  7. pappawtom

    pappawtom New Member

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    God created Adam and then Eve and he willed that they would follow his commands and live in the Garden of Eden but He also put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden with them, instructing them not to partake of it's fruit. He knew they might do just that and he, with their freewill to choose so, made a way for them to make it anyway since there could be no sin in Heaven, and that is Jesus's death and resurrection.
    We are told in John 3:16 that God so loved the world he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. That is grace for all since Jesus died once for all. Predestination as some believe it means that if you are already chosen you can not change it or if not chosen that too could not be changed and that smacks in the face of John 3:16.
    We as humankind was predestined to be with God but since we failed in the Garden of Eden He made another way for us to go and that is the freewill part to choose to love and follow Him or turn away.
     
  8. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Nicely said!
     
  9. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I think the doomed from the womb is because of the fact that we are born in a fallen condition where our spirit and soul and NOT one with our bodies. This is the mortal condition. I don't believe it refers to a baby being a sinner but unfortunately born with the affliction of mortality due to the fall of the human race.
     
  10. pappawtom

    pappawtom New Member

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    This is pretty much what I believe about it as well. I like to refer to the potter in making clay containers and something is introduced into the clay that makes weak spots therefore making the pot not fully complete and vulnerable to destruction. In the garden Adam and Eve were perfect in their being with out any spot or blemish but they were given that freewill to choose to completely obey God's command or not and they chose not to obey and as a result of that were kicked out of the garden.

    I believe that God knew that probably would happen and since He wanted us to love Him He knew there had to be a way to cover that imperfection and He set up the plan of Grace that we are the beneficiaries of today. Wow! What an amazing God! There has been much arguing back and forth over this but it really does not matter because it does not change anything. I personally feel that if a person feels they have to stand on their heads and gargle peanut butter to make it to Heaven then that is OK as long as they do not think that everyone else has to do the same thing.
     
  11. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I agree completely.
     
  12. rainautumn4

    rainautumn4 Interfaith Forums

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    The concept of predestination has been secularized thus twisted and misconstrued.


    False prophets/Satan reversed the truth.
    By teaching a false meaning of predestination.
    He said that He predestined some
    but He predestined ALL

    Everyone has a predestined path but we are the elect because we "chose" our predestined path.
    We can of our own free will not choose that predestined path…

    hence Romans 8:28-30 says:
    "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."


    So lets paraphrase this verse in its true meaning:
    And we know that for those who love god all things work together for good, for those who accepted His call and purpose. For those whom god [knew would choose Him] were also predestined [as we all were] to be conformed to the image of his son that they may be reborn [spiritually in Him]. and those whom were predestined He also called [because no one can come to the father except through Him-- Jesus Christ. This is referring to the process in which He draws on our heart], and those whom he called he also justified [this is referring to the purification/rebirth through the holy spirit], and those whom he justified He also glorified [this is referring to the glory of His holy ones; those who exist in Him/Christ].

    The first sentence tends to throw people off because it says 'those who are called'
    It says that because god has to draw on our heart or call us before we can accept the call. But this is a two way process. God is not drawing us without our cooperation and we are not inactively being drawn. We have to accept the call.
    The holy spirit calls everyone for redemption. But not everyone accepts the call. Therefore only those that answer the call are called. Hence the verse states: and we know that for those who "love god" all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose [His plan to redeem us].
    I’m being overly thorough here because of the division the misinterpretation of these verses has caused... the entire doctrine is completely contradictory to the rest of the scriptures; its complete nonsense.

    The scriptures say repeatedly that Jesus died for the sins of all humanity not desiring that even one should perish-- but that ALL should come to repentance.
     
  13. chongjasmine

    chongjasmine New Member

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    I believe in predestination.
    God foresaw and knew all things.
    But I support free will.
    We are free to make choices, in spite of predestination.
     
  14. Frrostedman

    Frrostedman Keepin' it cool

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    I believe our final destination is predestined, but the path we take from the start to the end, is our own doing. 99% autonomy.
     
  15. Quirkybird

    Quirkybird Granny to five

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    Just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it is necessarily true especially if it defies credibility.

    I watched a programme a few months ago which showed that the Bible has been translated and parts rewritten so many times over the centuries; it is very hard to know if much of it was actually what the original authors had written.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I think there's a difference between pre-knowing, and pre-destining.

    I think God does the former, not the latter. Thus I think God knew that Judas would betray, but He didn't set it up that Judas would betray.
     
  17. Frrostedman

    Frrostedman Keepin' it cool

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    Gotcha.

    Other than in specific, important situations, I do not believe God predestines anything (apart from our final destination). But I do believe that everything that happens is foreknown and pre-approved. Would that be preordination? If we start with the premise that God foreknows all, then it necessarily follows that anything that happens, He has allowed to happen. Pre-approval. Preordination?
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    If you plant the seed and you know what will come of it and how it will get there, isn't it the same thing?
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As I see it, the question is how to preserve human freedom.

    I think the idea of God as micromanager, that every decision has been made for us, is a pretty awful prospect ... it means we're all just deluded puppets.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't agree that your second premise follows from your first.
     

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