Whadya know- Eastern Orthodox

[Postmaster]

Actually both sides were throwing excommunications at each other.


Ah ... I think we're conveniently forgetting the Iconoclast persecutions in an attempt to score a point?

Thomas

Wasnt aware of it but they probably did

 

[iBrian]

Ah ... I think we're conveniently forgetting the Iconoclast persecutions in an attempt to score a point?

And then the small fact of the Byzantine Empire and its armies as well.

 

[Postmaster]

at that time the catholic church and the orthodox church were the same. When the split happened, coincidently we lost our capital and power. So the GOC has actually got a pretty good clean sheet

 

[nativeastral]

from what little l know of orthodox christianity what struck me was an emphasis more than in the west of the spirituality of matter, particularly with regard to food imbided. A mix between Greek divinisation and Jewish santification.

Fasting - OrthodoxWiki

Also the main doctrinal difference was the filoque [lt. 'and the Son'] of the west, 'in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]'. Whereas the Eastern understanding of the relation of the Spirit to the Son is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father only [Binns,2002], as well of course authority issues. l saw it that the East had an immense love of Mary/Holy Spirit/Feminine [Ephesus etc] as well as precedence still of Greek/Roman goddesses then when Constantinople became the 'New Rome'.

 

[Postmaster]

Ah man fasting... Been there done that. Now I just give something up for lent, usually something bad for my health like crisps haha.. But I guess its good for the animals to cut the meat.

 

[GlorytoGod]

dont know much about orthodox Church but I dont think they are to hot on female clergy

since the Anglican Church has been mentioned, now that something I am warming to.

there is even a british orthodox church The British Orthodox Church

not been to one though, maybe one day.

 

[Thomas]

I was initially drawn to the 'Mystery of the East', but as I got closer I found I had to decipher what was 'mysterious' because it was 'different' (eg the liturgy) and what was mysterious because of a theological disposition.

As a searcher, the EO attitude did not sit happily with me. The idea that certain things should not be discussed because they are a mystery and therefore not a topic of theological inquiry, and that because I was not in orders I did not have the gift of the Spirit to discuss them anyway, did not sit well with me.

Anselm defined theology as faith seeking understanding — EO favours the idea of faith does not need to understand. I'm not saying there is no theology in the East, but I am saying that it is assumed that theology is reserved for those in orders, it's not the place of the lay person to ask such questions.

Of course there are great lay theologians — Philip Sherrard, Andrew Louth — but I'm speaking about a general disposition.

Has anyone ever logged on to an Orthodox forum? The degree of respect and deference is remarkable. That's why you don't get Orthodox posting here. I had a number of discussions with a Copt elsewhere, but I would never invite him here.

The Orthodox East are not slow to voice their disapproval of the Latin West that seeks to inquire into matters they feel are beyond inquiry.

And, of course, the West insists that man can know and participate in the essence of the Divine, whereas the East says man can only know the Divine according to Its energies ... the West accuses the East of imputing a distinct dualism into the Deity, bordering on polytheism.

+++

My personal response to the Liturgy, for example — the inconostasis stands between the laity and the clergy, and separates the layman from the celebration of the Rite. A long way from the 'house church' and communal meal of early Christianity, and frankly I believe owes more to the conduct of the Greek Mystery Cults.

A friend of ours, a Catholic, used to accompany her Orthodox boyfriend to the liturgy, and was horrified when he was pulled out of the mass to go and fix the photocopier! whilst the Orthoox will claim their hours of liturgy compared to the Latin 45 minutes ... He explained the Greeks regard the mass more as a social gathering, meet, chat, pray, step out for a cigarette ... with the hardcore of old ladies in the middle.

Also the main doctrinal difference was the filoque [lt. 'and the Son'] of the west, 'in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]'. Whereas the Eastern understanding of the relation of the Spirit to the Son is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father only [Binns,2002]...

St Maximus resolved that argument in the 7th century.

Consider these verses:
John 14:16
"And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever."
So the Orthodox are right, and the Latins wrong — the Spirit is sent of the Father only.

John 15:26
"But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." Oh, no, the Orthodox are wrong and the Latins right, the Spirit is sent by the Son ...

John 14:26
"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."
Oh, give us a break! Now the Father sends the Spirit, but in the Son's name, which means the Son is the Principle of the sending of the Spirit, even though it is the Father who sends Him ...

So Scripturally, I can argue three separate and distinct positions ... or I can as easily posit a position which assumes that St John the Theologian (as the Orthodox call him) was not in fact such a poor theologian that he contradicted himself twice in the space of one chapter ...

... as well of course authority issues.

The difficulty is that the whole Church always treated Rome as the 'first among equals' in a real sense and appealed to Rome to settle disputes ... not until Constantinople sought political ascendency did the matter become an issue.

Then of course, Constantinople was somewhat hoist on its own petard. Demanding the right to local determination and autonomy of action, the first thing it did was accuse Rome of acting autonomously in regard of the filioque dispute — so they accused Rome of doing what they themselves claimed the right to do.

Nor were we (Rome) blameless by any stretch, we treated our sister churches in a very off-hand manner in the affair (the trademark of Latin politics, then and now, sadly).

The right thing to do was clarify with the East, but that would have required another Council, an idea which appealed to no-one. But we could have written letters, sent envoys, and taken the trouble to explain our position, rather than acting somewhat imperiously ... we could have at least made an effort.

l saw it that the East had an immense love of Mary/Holy Spirit/Feminine [Ephesus etc] as well as precedence still of Greek/Roman goddesses then when Constantinople became the 'New Rome'.

Well the West has always had a strong Marian devotion, but no, we did not stray 'out of bounds' as it were with regard to 'the sacred feminine'. That I always understood more of a Russian O than a Greek O thing (recently, anyway) and not without problems.

In the West we have the dogma of the Assumption, which again the East tends to wag a finger at. They have Dormition, not quite the same thing. It's a perfect example of how the West derives its understanding from theological investigation, which the East tends not to ask questions, but just accepts a mystery.

Really it depends on one's spiritual disposition ... I am drawn inexorably to the speculative nature of the Greek Fathers, their writings simply 'light me up' in a way I cannot explain (although my beloved has likened it to a love affair) but I found that light burns brighter in the West than in the East ...

All I do know is that, were I granted one wish by the Holy Spirit, it would be to spend the rest of my life working towards the restoration of the original communion between West and East.

Thomas

 

[nativeastral]

thanks for that clarification Thomas, l hadn't heard of the word dormition before, could you expand?

 

[Postmaster]

Personally I think it’s the best doctrine on earth and this isn't a bias as I have actually swayed way off it until recently. The GOC has never burnt any witches at the stake, never discouraged the practise of science, or persecuted any ethnic group, actually since the fall of Constantinople the GOC has had a pretty tough time trying to keep the faith alive and all EOC share similar attitudes and charaterists, its not one of arrogance its more one of you can travel the world to look for something only to come back and find it in your kitchen kind of attitude and mystery is available not only to the intellectual few but to everyone.

 

[Thomas]

Personally I think it’s the best doctrine on earth and this isn't a bias as I have actually swayed way off it until recently.

It still is though, as it's a personal view.

Personally I think it's the best doctrine too (it's the same as mine ), but I also think Catholicism encourages theological inquiry more than Orthodoxy does, so being of an inquiring nature, I was drawn more towards Catholicism.

Thomas

 

[Postmaster]

Whatever floats your boat