Reconstructionism

[Avi]

I am going to post a couple of resources, then I am going to make some comparisons between Renewal and Reconstructionism.

I have started becoming interested in Recon. because it seems to be further on the rationalist spectrum than Renewal. I particularly like their idea about "Chosenness" (surprise ). I also like the idea of "community", where Jewish Temples are used in a multi-functional manner. There is some controversy over this in Renewal, but I think R. Kaplan made the better argument.

Here is a copy of a Recon. book I found on google books. It is called "Dynamic Judaism":

Dynamic Judaism: the essential ... - Google Books

And here is a link to the Recon. website:

Jewish Reconstructionist Federation - Home | Jewish Reconstructionist Federation

The current view is that liberal Judaism is becoming more traditional. I argue to reverse this trend.

More comparison to Renewal shortly....

 

[dauer]

I have started becoming interested in Recon. because it seems to be further on the rationalist spectrum than Renewal

It is further on the rationalist spectrum. If by spectrum you mean, rationalism on one end and mysticism on the other, then Renewal is inclined in the opposite direction.

The current view is that liberal Judaism is becoming more traditional. I argue to reverse this trend.

What do you mean when you say traditional?

-- Dauer

 

[Avi]

On page 7 of Dynamic Judaism (I was trying to cut and past this from the Google Book version on-line, but was unable to. If anyone knows how to do this please let us know, I would like to PM you to learn how to do it), it explains that Kaplan differed from Reform in two primary ways:

1) He disagreed with Reform rejection of ritual, and

2) He disagreed with Reform rejection of Zionism.

This is encouragment for me to return to the thread on Reform which I started when I joined the forum .

 

[17th Angel]

"racial equality!!" Says the Avatar,

"I particularly like their idea about 'Chosenness'." Says the poster....

I might misunderstand? Explain?

 

[Avi]

"racial equality!!" Says the Avatar,

"I particularly like their idea about 'Chosenness'." Says the poster....

I might misunderstand? Explain?

"The poster" likes the Recon. idea about chosenness, which is to reject this idea. Do you agree ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. Its founder, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, said that the idea that God chose the Jewish people leads to racist beliefs among Jews, and thus must be excised from Jewish theology. This rejection of chosenness is made explicit in the movement's siddurim (prayer books).

Jews as a chosen people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[17th Angel]

Ah righty oh.... *nods* Sometimes read things warped...

Oh aye, I agree that there is no chosen peoples, but in the jewish concept there is.... Although find it strange to meet a jew that doesn't agree with chosennes..... It's like an equal rights Nazi. Just seems... Ironic.

 

[Avi]

Although find it strange to meet a jew that doesn't agree with chosennes..... It's like an equal rights Nazi. Just seems... Ironic.

Umm, Mr. 17, comparing Jews to Nazi's, hmmmm.

I think I know when I am being egged on !!!

Penelope would box your ears for that comment !!!

Oh aye, I agree that there is no chosen peoples, but in the jewish concept there is....

Right, the traditional Jewish view involves chosenness. Dauer has discussed this at length, and explained that it is more about responsibilites than rights.

That is why I want to discuss the Recon. notion of rejection of choseness further !!

Ah righty oh.... *nods* Sometimes read things warped...

We'll let you go this time, but you have to promise to quit studying those Madame Blatavsky comic books !!

 

[17th Angel]

It was to help show an oxymoron..... They both from their creeds, values, norms and belifes see themselves as master races...... So for a jew to say that he/she disagrees with the chosen people concept.

I can easily see how that would be like a Nazi saying "well, I think we're all equal." It just seems..... Funny. Egged on? Um.... If you feel like that, well that is obviously your choice to feel like it.... A defensive fellow ain'tcha?

I think some traditions can be old hat, usless, or whatever... But when you're speaking of religion.... And if you are an adherent to the said faith.... Something like chosenness, that really is a tradition you shouldn't change but value.

Blavatsky?? Helena?

 

[Avi]

It was to help show an oxymoron..... They both from their creeds, values, norms and belifes see themselves as master races...... So for a jew to say that he/she disagrees with the chosen people concept.

I understood the contrast, it was the comparison to Nazism that I found distasteful. Certainly you have communicated enough with Jewish people to know that is not a comparison that many would accept lightly, isn't that the case ?

I can easily see how that would be like a Nazi saying "well, I think we're all equal." It just seems..... Funny. Egged on? Um.... If you feel like that, well that is obviously your choice to feel like it.... A defensive fellow ain'tcha?

I got the point last post. Oh, don't worry, I don't take your comment personally, no hard feelings on my part. I have read enough of your posts to know that you are a very direct communicator. I am just responding directly to your comments as well .

I think some traditions can be old hat, usless, or whatever... But when you're speaking of religion.... And if you are an adherent to the said faith.... Something like chosenness, that really is a tradition you shouldn't change but value.

Obviously I disagee. I am not the one that created the Recon. idea of rejection of choseness. It was a famous rabbi, Mordechi Kaplan. I happen to think he was quite a genius and I agree with some of his ideas. He was also a strong Zionist, which at the time was not popular among reform Jews.

So why do you think choseness should be valued not rejected ?

Blavatsky?? Helena?

That's the Blatavsky I was referring to.

 

[17th Angel]

I understood the contrast, it was the comparison to Nazism that I found distasteful. Certainly you have communicated enough with Jewish people to know that is not a comparison that many would accept lightly, isn't that the case ?

Ah my bad, it's just you didn't really respond to it but react to the comparison, so I wasn't sure if you got it.

Sorry :O I have a fair few friends I speak with that are all pretty laid back dudes :/ I guess I just am a bit more relaxed than I should of been perhaps? "communicated enough with the jewish people" See like, even that makes me chuckle.... "I come in peace."

Well, glad you didn't take it too seriously.. I'll do my utmost to modify my language before directing questions at you next time.

Ah don't confuse my stupidity for directness..... Wait... *thinks* Yeah.

Obviously I disagee. I am not the one that created the Recon. idea of rejection of choseness. It was a famour rabbi, Mordechi Kaplan. I happen to think he was quite a genius and I agree with some of his ideas. He was also a strong Zionist, which at the time was not popular among reform Jews.

So why do you think choseness should be valued not rejected ?

To say hey maybe we're not thee chosen... Is to say... Hey... What does god know? I feel it takes the value of your faith away.

Sure in a human view it can be seen as bad and wrong to discriminate in such a manner.... But who's view would / should be seen as more worthy? Your god? Popular belife?

You believe in the Israelite god? He said that he picked your people above others... made deals, made sacrafices, gave support, victory, protection... I mean.... This being makes an oath to you, and If I were a die hard jew.... Reading and believing the Torah..... I'd really, really want to keep that oath to him as well.

"You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities."

That's the Blatavsky I was referring to.

lol just checking....

 

[Avi]

Ah my bad, it's just you didn't really respond to it but react to the comparison, so I wasn't sure if you got it.

Sorry :O I have a fair few friends I speak with that are all pretty laid back dudes :/ I guess I just am a bit more relaxed than I should of been perhaps? "communicated enough with the jewish people" See like, even that makes me chuckle.... "I come in peace."

Well, glad you didn't take it too seriously.. I'll do my utmost to modify my language before directing questions at you next time.

Ah don't confuse my stupidity for directness..... Wait... *thinks* Yeah.

No problem at all 17. You do not have to agree with my views about chosenness, that is fine.

To say hey maybe we're not thee chosen... Is to say... Hey... What does god know?

I do not presume to know what G-d knows. But I like the Kaplan quote that I posted earlier, which indicates that the notion of chosenness has caused serious problems. We have 3,000 years of data on this issue.

I feel it takes the value of your faith away.

I do not agree that it reduces the value of my faith at all.

Sure in a human view it can be seen as bad and wrong to discriminate in such a manner.... But who's view would / should be seen as more worthy? Your god? Popular belife?

I am not a literal interpreter of Torah. I believe that rejection of chosenness in no way diminishes my belief in G-d.

You believe in the Israelite god?

I do not believe that Israel has a different G-d than the rest of mankind. If that were true, we would be chosen.

He said that he picked your people above others... made deals, made sacrafices, gave support, victory, protection... I mean.... This being makes an oath to you, and If I were a die hard jew.... Reading and believing the Torah..... I'd really, really want to keep that oath to him as well.

So you are trying to convince me that because G-d held a mountain over the heads of my ancestors at Sinai, that I should consider myself chosen ? Do you know what the reform belief about revelation is ? . Get ready for a real shocker here.

"You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities."

Reform Jewish prayerbooks do not use the same threats and retributions that traditional praybooks do, I have not seen much discussion of our "iniquities".

Just out of curiousity, 17, why do you choose your avatar as the devil with the quote: "Hail Satan" ? Are you a devil worshipper ?

 

[Avi]

Additional Images

Photo
(I want the superman one!)

By the way, 17, why would you want a yarmulke ?

 

[17th Angel]

By the way, 17, why would you want a yarmulke ?

Why wouldn't I!! I'd murder to get my hands on a Tzizit also... Such snappy dressers....

No problem at all 17. You do not have to agree with my views about chosenness, that is fine.


I do not presume to know what G-d knows. But I like the Kaplan quote that I posted earlier, which indicates that the notion of chosenness has caused serious problems. We have 3,000 years of data on this issue.

That's cool an all, I was just throwing some stuff out there... Just never met a jew that didn't agree with the chosen peoples idea, (or not ben aware of it.) quite new to me.

I do not agree that it reduces the value of my faith at all.



I am not a literal interpreter of Torah. I believe that rejection of chosenness in no way diminishes my belief in G-d.

Well that is most certainly good to know!

I do not believe that Israel has a different G-d than the rest of mankind. If that were true, we would be chosen.

Oh he's sharp!

So you are trying to convince me that because G-d held a mountain over the heads of my ancestors at Sinai, that I should consider myself chosen ? Do you know what the reform belief about revelation is ? . Get ready for a real shocker here.

Nooooo, not at all, not attempting to convince you of a thing, just sharing an opinion tis all.... You asked, I answered. Shock me!

Just out of curiousity, 17, why do you choose your avatar as the devil
with the quote: "Hail Satan" ?
Are you a devil worshipper ?

Because I drew it.

Because, I see "Him" as a more a suggestion, a banner of sorts to hail under, and I support and agree with all that the banner represents. I choose the good side

Not really.... Well, I guess to some I could be? *shrugs* I only worship one entity in this realm or (if) any other, and that would be, self.