Ignorance Killed Jesus

[shawn]

People (we) failed Jesus. Jesus himself did not fail. That is a very important point

If you are stuck in the "Jesus is G*d" paradigm then one would say such things.
Jesus is not G*d, he was a failed messiah who was seeking to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel back on the path (he even said so).
If he had of succeeded in that goal then the temple would not have been destroyed.
All through the Bible it talks about the consequences of straying from the proper form of worship and all through the Bible we see examples of the House of Israel going through cycles of good kings and bad kings, of righteousness and of wickedness, and we see the consequences of each quite clearly.
Unfortunately we have also since seen the usurpation of a religion for political reasons, as Constantine realized that this religion (x-ianity), made the job of running his empire much easier in many ways.

 

[soleil10]

If you are stuck in the "Jesus is G*d" paradigm then one would say such things. Jesus is not G*d,

I did not say he was. He was a man with a divine character

he was a failed messiah

He could no fulfill his original mission because of the ignorance and lack of faith of the people

who was seeking to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel back on the path (he evexn said so).

Can you explain what does that mean ?

If he had of succeeded in that goal then the temple would not have been destroyed.

OK

All through the Bible it talks about the consequences of straying from the proper form of worship and all through the Bible we see examples of the House of Israel going through cycles of good kings and bad kings, of righteousness and of wickedness, and we see the consequences of each quite clearly.

I agree

Unfortunately we have also since seen the usurpation of a religion for political reasons, as Constantine realized that this religion (x-ianity), made the job of running his empire much easier in many ways.

What is your point ? Are you against religion ?

 

[17th Angel]

The jews killed him :/

 

[shawn]

soleil10:
What is your point ? Are you against religion ?

Nope, just against ignorance.
Unfortunately, IMHO, religions are filled with ignorance and superstitions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn
who was seeking to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel back on the path (he even said so).

soleil10:
Can you explain what does that mean ?

The people are symbolized as sheep, of course the priest caste (cohens) were the shepherds, they were lost in ignorance and had gotten off of the path of righteousness which Hashem had established for them to follow.
Jesus said that this was his mission.
Nothing to do with the nations (gentiles/goyim).
Not even the Samaritans.
Just the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
He was the shepherd who was trying to lead the people back to a righteous path.
The people (actually the rich, ruling factions) would have none of it and so had him killed.

 

[immortalitylost]

But, in having him killed, he really fulfilled his mission. At least to as much extent as possible, and then some. Because in dying, the gentiles were also "brought into the flock" so to speak along with the Israelites that would believe and have faith that he was the messiah. So why do you believe dying was not part of the original plan?

 

[shawn]

But, in having him killed, he really fulfilled his mission. At least to as much extent as possible, and then some. Because in dying, the gentiles were also "brought into the flock" so to speak along with the Israelites that would believe and have faith that he was the messiah. So why do you believe dying was not part of the original plan?

I see it more as an afterthought, kind of like the back up plan...you know....well this is plan A, but they may kill me so I better have a plan B as a fallback position.
Just kidding.
Actually there are many layers of meaning at work here.
the best I can say about it is that chistianity is a necessary idolatry, in that so many people have taken an interest in Judaism as a result of it who most likely wouldn't have heard a thing.
Also, as a result of the diaspora there were many people who started out Jewish, but after a few centuries were pretty well absorbed into whatever cultural group they found themselves in all over the globe.
These people need to hear about their roots (which they mostly forgot after a few generations).
I found out that way back in Europe part of the family was once Jewish, but that was lost (apart from the genetics) so now it is just kind of anecdotal same as the fact that one of the great, great, great grandpas was a b@st@rd son of one of the Louis' of France.
It doesn't mean anything other than anecdotal.

 

[immortalitylost]

Yeah, that's what I meant. A whole lot of people would not have heard of Christianity, or read about Judaism through the old testament, or decided to investigate it further if Jesus hadn't died. He effected most cultures in this world simply by dying. That is the reason I don't look at it like that wasn't the plan. I mean, since he was only supposed to be there for the people of Israel, would his life have had as great an effect as it has if he hadn't died? I kinda think it was the plan all along. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[shawn]

Well we can take the "hindsight is always 20/20" stance.
Say we had a big war and things turned out a certain way.
Well, we can always say, several generations later or centuries, that things turned out according to plan as we can always find some way of rationalizing these things.
Count on it.
Some people make their entire careers around this type of activity.

 

[immortalitylost]

Yups. As is omniscient foresight, lol.

I always found it sweet how the littlest things, like someone misplacing a letter or something could win battles or even wars. It's the little coincidences like that that make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and affirm my faith that not only is there God, but he has a sense of humor. Heck, he created humor!

And laughter is half the battle. lol. But seriously that does it for me. Some crazy coincidence happens and I'm like, yup, there's a God. I guess I'm just easily impressed. It's kind of weird, but hey, that's me...

Off topic... sry...

 

[soleil10]

Yeah, that's what I meant. A whole lot of people would not have heard of Christianity, or read about Judaism through the old testament, or decided to investigate it further if Jesus hadn't died.

Can you imagine how Jesus could have affected the world, if he could have lived, create a sinless family. He would not have to come back again

He affected most cultures in this world simply by dying.

Yes when faced with death, he offered his life for our sins and went to the depth of hell.

That is the reason I don't look at it like that wasn't the plan. I mean, since he was only supposed to be there for the people of Israel,

He came for the whole world. Israel was the starting point

would his life have had as great an effect as it has if he hadn't died? I kinda think it was the plan all along. But that's just my humble opinion.

Yes it would have. His ministry was cut short only after 3 years. If he had be recognized as the son of God and Messiah while he was alive, can you imagine what would have happened ?

 

[immortalitylost]

But he knew he was to die. If Jesus could know the future, even in a simplified form, could not God know the whole of it? Couldn't an omniscient God know it? Wouldn't God have known before Jesus was born what his fate was to be? Wouldn't it then, since it was allowed to move forward, be in accordance with God's plan that Jesus died? You see, I believe in the omniscience of God. So to say to me, "this happened, but God would have wanted it to go this way had he only been given the choice," doesn't make a bit of sense. Things could Go a million different ways, but they only happen in one way. I believe this to be God's way. The way that he created it to go. The way that he knows it will go. Because he knows everything. There is no going against plan in my eyes. If something is going, it is by definition going to plan, and its very existence as a moment in time is proof of that.

And once again, I've talked myself out of being able to argue against anything...

Wow. This whole God being omniscient thing and free will paradox is hard to live amongst...

Woe is me... Man, melodramatic much? Dang.

 

[soleil10]

But he knew he was to die. If Jesus could know the future, even in a simplified form, could not God know the whole of it? Couldn't an omniscient God know it? Wouldn't God have known before Jesus was born what his fate was to be? Wouldn't it then, since it was allowed to move forward, be in accordance with God's plan that Jesus died? You see, I believe in the omniscience of God. So to say to me, "this happened, but God would have wanted it to go this way had he only been given the choice," doesn't make a bit of sense. Things could Go a million different ways, but they only happen in one way. I believe this to be God's way. The way that he created it to go. The way that he knows it will go. Because he knows everything. There is no going against plan in my eyes. If something is going, it is by definition going to plan, and its very existence as a moment in time is proof of that.
And once again, I've talked myself out of being able to argue against anything...
Wow. This whole God being omniscient thing and free will paradox is hard to live amongst.
Woe is me... Man, melodramatic much? Dang.

God is omniscient and His will will not change but He needs man's cooperation. We have our portion of responsibility. God's law of love requires it. There is not free will without love. God is love and our parent.