Jesus

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by Postmaster, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    I'm just wondering what the Jewish position on Jesus is? I know Judaism has many different directions, I'd like to hear any. If im not mistaken there is no Satan in Judaism but I would like to know if Jesus is considered negative in anyway?
     
  2. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Isn't Satan in the Old Testament? ie. Book of Job

    It just doesn't have the idea of good vs. evil, good guy vs. bad guy, protagonist vs. antagonist as in Christianity.

    While we're waiting for a response, I thought this page might put in perspective how Christianity emerged in the first century and how, from a Jewish perspective, Christianity may not sound so "ridiculous" after all in terms of how it may have emerged from the Jewish culture of the time. However, because it puts things in social and literary context, it is also a demonstration of how Christian beliefs and sentiments are often a sign of blindness on the part of Christians as to how much of their thinking is actually a literary and social construct, rather than a reflection of socio-political and human social reality.

    My Jewish Learning: Christianity in Context

    The difference between life driven by a literary/social construct and life driven by a socio-political and human social reality is that in the former, you see the world as driven by entities and agents described in a religious text but which don't exist physically or by the same name (or with the same underlying relationships) as in the real world. As in the case of Christianity, the world is seen in terms of the divine, angels, demons, Satan, Lucifer and otherworldly elements.

    With the latter, you see the world as driven by agents and entities that are much the same as how others would see them (ie. whether they are Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Asian, African, etc.). The agents and entities you see in your reality are directly identifiable, physically, by name, politically and legally. You don't think in terms of angels, demons or Lucifer. You refer to the Supreme Court as "the Supreme Court," not an evil spirit, an archon or the Angel Prince of the Kingdom of Persia. You refer to things by the same terms as ordinary, normal people. You don't dramatise your reality unless it is absolutely necessary. A big problem in Christianity is how literary dramatisations are overused, often beyond expediency.

    If Judaism was under the influence of a fad with Hellenistic heroics, then it means that Christianity, by definition, is a literary and social construct consisting largely of Hellenistic heroism. Hellenistic heroism is just a mental framework, but Christians have for much of their history been unable to detach or divorce themselves from this literary and social construct. Judaism, on the other hand, left it behind and discarded it as a mental framework.

    Much of Christianity is attachment to a social and literary construct rather than an actual understanding of what "Christianity" really meant back then. It is a very strange way of trying to understand one's own religion.
     
  3. dauer

    dauer Well-Known Member

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    That he's neither the Jewish messiah nor a prophet to Judaism. Outside of that there's plenty of room for speculation. But he doesn't factor into Jewish religion.

    We have the idea of HaSatan, but this relates to a celestial being who, like other celestial being, has no free will. He's a servant of God who does God's will by testing man. Sometimes he's identified with the base drives in humanity.

    That is going to depend on the individual. Certainly, if he's being held up to Jewish standards for the messiah, then he's a false messiah. But if you mean in terms of metaphysics or theology, no.
     
  4. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    Thanks SM and for the text book answer D.
     
  5. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    PM, always willing to stick your neck out and touch the 3rd rail, I love it :). That is what interfaith dialogue is about !!

    When I was a child, my Jewish education never mentioned the name Jesus.

    I have been told that the Talmud, which was written after the time of Jesus, mentions him a couple of times (it might be indirect reference) but I have not come across these references. The Talmud is 27 volumes so I have not read the whole thing.

    To bring some balance to the discussion, I have asked several of my Egyptian friends what did they learn about Moses and the Jews escape from Egypt when they left for Israel. They told me this story is almost entirely absent from Egyptian history.

    So perhaps the absence of these stories speaks volumes about our religions and civilization.

    Perhaps someday, as we evolve, we will be able to better understand complex issues like this one.
     
  6. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    Cheers avi, I never would have guessed Jesus was reffered to in the Talmud.

    I think we live in an era where these complex theological issues can be explored and answered especially now we have the the internet.

    I think your right when generally speaking, the differences in religion does speak alot about the course of different civilizations. This can be historically observed.
     
  7. Chavak

    Chavak Member

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    My understanding that the Yeshu mentioned in the Talmud is not
    the Jesus of Christianity; others disagree.

    So I guess to be correct, one should say there is a divergent
    opinion on whether or not Jesus is referred to in the Talmud.
     
  8. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Hi Chavak, yes, you are right, I have heard this point before.

    But it seems that I have also heard that there are some references, perhaps they are indirect, to Jesus.

    Given the timing, I believe the Talmud was written from about 100 - 500 C.E. it seems like the presence of Jesus was enormous. Is it possible that he had no affect at all on Rabbinic thinking ?

    Also, wasn't Hillel just a little earlier and even overlapped with Jesus ?
     
  9. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    what chavak said - but the best place to start with this is this rather useful site that dauer pulled up a while back:

    Jesus In The Talmud

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  10. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    BB, thanks, very interesting link, I have not seen that before.
     
  11. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Negative?? lol Negative? That's light isn't it? This bloke, came along claimed to be -thee- son of god... Said you could only speak to god by praying through him?? This dude was a troublemaker and a glory seeker lol of course he is negative....

    He even claimed to be the messiah.... But, did he; end hatred and bring world peace? Did he build the third temple? Gather all the jews back to israel? Did he spread -Universal- knowledge of god? These are the traits of the messiah.... Truth is, he didn't lol...

    So, we have a glory seeker, troublemaker and fraud.... What else....

    *thinks*

    Oh yeah, any that attempt to change the Torah.... are false.... So the bible.... Hmmm not exactly the Torah now is it?.....

    god is ONE? right? Jesus(catholic view) Shows god as three.... Isn't this idolatry?

    Glory seeker, troublmaker, fraud, false prophet and idolator.... Yeah I guess he could be seen as negative xD

    Afterall.... They did have him bumped off didn't they?
     
  12. dauer

    dauer Well-Known Member

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    Stirring the pot thar mister 17th?
     
  13. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    thanks for link and replies.
     
  14. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    *licks his large wooden spoon*

    Maybeh. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Is it not like that though? I am accurate? Right right?


    jesus is the glory hole of christianity...

    On your knees sheep :/
     
  15. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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    In response to Alex Isnt Jesus part of universal knowledge?

    We dont know if he wanted glory, we dont even know for sure he even exsisted or he was anything like he is portrayed to be.
     
  16. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    The story of jesus is I would assume, is pretty much universal, but he, didn't spread universal knowledge of god, and then unity of mankind became bond.... Did he? I didn't find out about a god from jesus... I heard about it from some jehovah witnesses that knocked on my door at work once. And if you asked me to describe mankind..... A united and peaceful collective, certainly isn't one of the things I would say. Universal knowledge, followed by salvation and redemption.... I have not been saved nor redeemed....

    "but like teh terminator!! He'll be back!!!"

    A messiah..... Doesn't need a second shot, another go..... He'd come, he'd conquer, he'd accomplish..... :/

    The second chance is a human thing.... A messiah would as said, accomplish... This is a being approved and backed by god....... Fathom that. Nothing would stop him, nothing would possibly get in his way.... He'd be unfreaking touchable....

    Don't loose heart! He wasn't the only false messiah... I cannot even count on my fingers AND toes the false messiahs of the world... But sure to me, I guess there isn't all negativity in them, They can offer hope.... (I ponder though if false hope is... ok?)

    No wait, thinking about it... I am not sure......

    Who you got... Examples *thinks* Judas... He was seen as the messiah people supported him, cheered, gathered.... Then? The rebel faction was cut down in a river of blood....

    Moses of Crete was another doozy.... Gathered the people! They rejoiced! the jews were saved and going back to Israel! Yay! *waves a little flag* Oh wait.... They're all drowning..... :/ The name I guess is where the similarities ended with Moses of Crete....

    Theudas? Oh wait... Romans crushed him too..

    David Reubeni? Burned at the stake by the most merciful pope...

    David Alroy? Revolted agaisnt the sultan attempted to gather the jews to salvation... His own father signed his death.

    Even simple lowly slaves (simon.... Slave of Herod) Claimed to be messiah and went on this vendetta of redemption...

    I could go on... But there are far, far too many. Let me get to my pattern, the pattern I see.... When times get rough.... (and well for the Jews....... That can be quite often.) Someone raises themself in a claim of messiah... Perhaps they know full well they are not.. But wish to spark a flame and morale in the people... Or they could be doing it for teh lulz or glory, riches, power what not...

    But in hard times.... Rebellions, revolts wars.... This seems to happen... And everytime it ends in tears.... And I wonder... Did they really mean well?

    It is part of the nature of man... (we are really quite simple and easy to figure out, even though are actions can baffle lol.)

    Like the Psychopath.... When something happens that the mind/person cannot handle... There is a click of switch and something else takes over...... Here the time of fear, death and darkness... The switch clicks... And there is some hope.... even if it maybe false it is enough to "get them through it"
     
  17. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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  18. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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  19. Joedjr

    Joedjr A Sometimes Member

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    Hi everyone,
    Not to hijack this too much, are any of the "New Testament" characters mentioned in the Talmud?
    thanks
    Joe
     
  20. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    not that i know of. there are various figures mentioned such as herod agrippa ("king agrippa") and probably-marcus-aurelius-but-maybe-antoninus-pius ("antoninus"), vespasian, titus, the governor turnus rufus and some guy called "apostemos" who i'm not sure who he is, but he's a right fecker. either way, it tends to be romans, for political reasons.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     

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