The virgin birth – Theosophy’s view

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Dec 27, 2009.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    IG,
     
    You asked,
     
    "Sounds like Theosophy is based on critical reasoning and not faith, would you agree?"
     
    --> It is actually based on both. Critical reasoning is a factor because each Theosophist must choose what to believe, no other Theosophist has the right to tell them what to believe. But faith is also a factor, in that Theosophists are asked to consider ideas that do not make sense to the logical/scientific mind (for example, the idea that time does not exist during the periods between universes). This does entail leaps of faith, but the person chooses to make these leaps of their own free will, rather than being forced into it by dogma.

    "Would you classify Theosophy as a science and not a faith-based religion?"
     
    --> I cannot give a yes or no answer to this question. It is not that simple. Theosophy says that true science and true religion are in absolute agreement, so perhaps it could be said that Theosophy is both science and religion. Let’s consider the quesiton as to whether Theosophy is a religion. Theosophy is not a religion, it is all religions combined together — the idea here being that Theosophy is the sum total all of relgions, and is the study of all religions as they struggle to explain what really happens when we die, what other planes of existence and levels of consciousness are like in the universe, how we fit into these levels of consciousness, and what our goal in life is. There is one more idea to mention here. Theosophy proposes that the gods that created earth and humanity (the gods — plural — which are mentioned in Genesis 1:26) wrote out a record of what they did. Each religion claims to have a copy of that record (Christians and Jews have their Genesis, Hindus have their Vedas, Buddhists have their Sutras, etc.) Theosophy says it has the first copy of the creation story record as written by those gods that has been translated from their original language directly into English. It is Theosophy’s relationship to this text that effects whether a person calls Theosophy a science, a religion, or the sum total of all religions. The question of faith — whether to believe that this text is genuine — is up to each person to decide, and that decision is always faith-based to some extent. Each Theosophist is not required to believe any of this, but merely to consider some of these ideas (especially ideas like reincarnation and karma) and see if these ideas will fit into their own personal belief system.

    I would like to mention one example of faith. Theosophy has struggled for some time with the question as to whether Jesus was a deity. Christian Theosophists say he was, Buddhist and Hindu Theosophists say he was not. This debate has raged within Theosophy for decades, has caused ill-will among some members, and even caused the London group to splinter into two groups many years ago. But each member is free to pursue his/her answer to this question as a matter of his/her own faith. This is a contentious problem within Theosophy, but Theosophy allows it (and Theosophy is one of the few organizations that welcomes people on both sides of this divisive bebate to be members of the Society). The ongoing struggle of some Theosophists trying to "bring Jesus in" while other members try to stop this from happening has been one of the more 'colorful' aspects of the Society over the last 100 years.
     
  2. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    According to the conflations of your brahmins, certainly, but it is no different to the Christians saying Jesus is the Son of God - both are imaginings. It is easier to worship these men than attain their heights, why walk their path when you can simply teach people to emulate them? Then, in another thread, you just commented that human nature is inherently lustful, this shows the damage your brahmins have done already - Krishna has had 1600 wives, why is sex so frowned upon by you?

    It is humorous though that I essentially tell you how to experience what Krishna has, and you give me a bunch of nonsense to refute it. Simply meditate on my words, you will discover their truth. Either I am right, or I am an Avatar.
     
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    According to the conflations of yours . . . HUMOROUS would indeed be the watch-word.

    We know why sex is so prised by you ---it's the ultimate material pleasure ---of which you may be quite familiar with as of this writting!

    Oh I bet you say that to all the sane people!
    I do apprieciate your effort ---although you are un-qualified to do so.
    Maybe I will return the favor and instruct you on mopping the floors of a Vishnu temple in some future kalpa?
     
  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Amazing! That what Slip Mahoney, of the Bowery Boys, used to say:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add one idea to the avatara discussion. According to Theosophy, Avataras can be incarnations of divine or semi-divine beings. There is no reason to believe Avataras are only divine beings or only the main deity of our universe. For example, it is claimed by some that the Dalai Lama is an Avatara, I think this is quite possible, but I also think that the Dalai Lama may be an incarnation of a semi-divine being such as Gautama Buddha (as some people claim), or even an incarnation of a divine being like Amida Buddha (as other people claim), but I think everyone will agree with me that Amida Buddha is not the main deity of our universe.
     
  6. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    lol... so because I do not condemn sex, I must prize it?

    It is simply a part of life, and something which can be very beautiful and enjoyable, there is nothing wrong in it. Obsessing about it either in the positive or negative sense is not going to make it go away, but any indulgence is going have side effects.

    I will not be returning.
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    In this respect, all are avatars, now the only distinction is whether the reincarnation is important to a group or not. All are the descending of a former being still separate from the whole. It is interesting though that Dalai Lama says this will be his last reincarnation, I might suggest it is because he has finally entered the 6th body - the second level of enlightenment - and thus cannot return.

    Further, we are all part of the Whole, we are never separate from That, so to worship particular fully enlightened beings over others is quite bizarre. Even to worship any of them is strange, the only difference is that we are on the road and they have arrived at the destination, otherwise they are nothing greater than us. Ego is love for self, love is the glue of the universe, thus our beings are very much glued together - enlightenment is to love the Whole, and thus combine our part with that again.
     
  8. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Of course, to LEARN from them, it is vitally important. They are each as maps, and the more detailed the map the easier it is to find the destination. Each scripture gives certain landmarks - if you will - on the way, and of course each is utterly correct if you can throw aside all that has been added through the ages, if you can find the raw experiences this person is trying to point to.

    To stand on the shoulders of giants, you will see further, your experience will be richer. Someone has been the original to find spirituality though, so it is perfectly possible without any guide at all. We do not have to do this though, we do not have to be the explorers, we just have to observe their pointers.
     
  9. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    Just to clarify, this is the Southern Baptist position; not my personal thoughts. I have not been a SB for over 20 years nor do I have any intention of returning.

    I personally do not think sex as sinful. It is a very natural and common phenomena in our animal kingdom. But the original sin argument is an interesting twist to the idea of virgin birth, IMHO.

    I do believe many Catholics also have a notion of "original sin", witness how babies are quickly baptised after their birth.
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It is not interesting at all, it is extremely mundane...

    Christianity creates a sickness in man: Sin.
    It then creates the symptom, and constantly reminds him of death: Guilt
    Now they tell you how to fix it: Get saved.

    Oh, and don't forget to give money to the Vatican, even though Jesus said money has nothing to do with God. He has said to give to Caesar what is his (money, his image is there), and to God what is his (soul, again gods image)... people seem to have got it the wrong way around... at least the Jews and Muslims can point to words in their text to justify, Christians utterly ignore that Jesus has discarded it. What purpose will God have with money? It is for the greedy men...
     
  11. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    They have a different chromosomal system. In humans, if there is one X and one Y chromosome, you get male; but two X gives female; two Y cannot survive (there are vital genes on the X chromosome and there has to be at least one copy; the Y only contributes the changes to make the body male). Other creatures however (birds as well as reptiles) have the system where one W and one Z is female; two W makes male; two Z cannot survive. So among those, any self-fertilization by a female (an unfertilized egg has only one copy from each pair of chromosomes; among the sex chromosomes it will have one W, or else one Z) has to give WW (male) or ZZ (dead). But among humans, a virgin birth could ONLY give a female (XX) child.
     
  12. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Thank you for sharing.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Bhaktajan —
    You must admit, it is a tough one to accept.

    Immaterial really, as the conception was miraculous, not a naturally spontaneous event, so you'll never explain it ... but you'd be amazed at the lengths some go to to explain it away.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  14. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Hi Bhaktajan —

    You must admit, it is a tough one to accept.

    It's difficult to stop teenage pregnacy due to ignoring the facts.


    Immaterial really, as the conception was miraculous, not a naturally spontaneous event, so you'll never explain it ... but you'd be amazed at the lengths some go to to explain it away.

    Immaterial really, = The Absolute Spirit Soul embuing flesh with animation is not achived by mixing of chemicals.

    as the conception was miraculous = It is false to denigrate the supernatural -- by saying man's actions can do better?

    not a naturally spontaneous event = this is a self-center-mundane-superiorty complex based mentality . . . spoken by those that they are Lords of all they survey, even though, their bowl movement tell them where to be at what time of day or night.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm talking about God's act ... not man's actions.

    God brought creation out of nothing, by an act of will ... that being so, I wonder why the idea that God cannot will within what He wills proves to be such a stumbling block?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  16. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    And there it goes.
     
  17. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Ego Hubris.

    Bio-bipeds with un-restrained sense gratifiying urges combined with Barnum & Bailey Circus hawkers on all sides . . . surely distracts one, nay, lures & enamors a pedestrian into the circus tents.

    The masses are inundating a surfer's vistas.
     
  18. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Well, the idea of virgin birth according to Mulaprakriti must be false because, if it was copied to be used as the virgin birth idea according to Christianity, it is equally false. The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7:14 has absolutely nothing to do with Mary or Jesus for that matter. Prophet Amos interpreted that virgin birth with the virgin being Israel, the Northern Kingdom and the son born of the virgin as being Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

    You can read Amos 5:2 where he identifies the virgin as Israel by name and, if you read Isaiah 7:15, 22 and 8:8, Isaiah also indentifies Judah by name as the son of the virgin in Isaiah 7:14.
    Ben
     

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