A phone conversation with a muslim missionary

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by rodgertutt, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY

    A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
    (I have sent out many hundreds of packets of free literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

    The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”

    I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

    He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

    I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

    He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

    I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

    He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

    I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

    I don’t think he thought it was funny.

    I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

    It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

    I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

    Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

    Also Google up
    THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
    Or
    ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
    Or
    UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
    to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Copying your blog posts from 2009 and posting it here are we Roger?

    What exactly is the difference between that Muslim proslytizing his truth and you doing the same with yours?

    So you've go no Free Will? You had to respond to the Muslim that way and G!d is forcing you to cut and paste this stuff all over the internet?
     
  3. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    The exact difference?

    The all inclusiveness of the Christian Biblical Universalist versus the exclusiveness of the eternal torment Christians and Muslims.

    The strongest influence in my life is to guide people who are interested to links that say what I would want to say, only much better than I could say it.
     
  4. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    You could at least have included the views of the Muslim Quranic Universalist.:)
     
  5. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    I'm assuming from the smiley that you are joking.

    If you are not jokng, then I don't think there are any Muslim universalists.

    Are you aware of any?
     
  6. OAT

    OAT Where is the TAO?

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    I am curious:

    When in the history of Christianity did the doctrine of Hell come into being?

    Had all those Christian scholars, thinkers and disciples got it wrong all this while?

    If yes, how did they got it so wrong?
     
  7. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Origin of the doctrine of hell

    The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment

    For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
    These online books also explain why and how this changed.
    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
    The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal
    Whence Eternity? How Eternity Slipped In by Alexander Thomson
    Chapter Thirteen

    Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

    The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

    The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”
    And they were reading the Bible in its original language.


    HISTORY OF OPINIONS

    Hope all this helps. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  8. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Re: Origin of the doctrine of hell

    CHURCH LEADERS WHO BELIEVED AND TAUGHT UNIVERSALISM DURING THE EARLIEST CENTURIES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

    1. THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES – 150 A.D. – composed by Christian universalist writers
    2. THE BASILIDIANS – 130 A.D.
    3. THE CARPOCRATIANS – 140 A.D.
    4. IRENAEUS -- 130A.D.
    5. CLEMENS ALEXANDRIUS – 150 A.D.
    6. THEOPHILUS – 169 A.D.
    7. ORIGEN – 185 A.D.
    8. GREGORY THAUMATURGUS – 220 A.D.
    9. EUSEBIUS OF CAECAREA – 265 A.D.
    10. ATHANASIUS – 296 A.D.
    11. MARCELLUS OF ANCYRA – 315 A.D.
    12. DIDYMUS OF ALEXANDRIA – 300 A.D.
    13. GREGORY NYSSEN – 332 A.D.
    14. HILLARY OF POICTIERS – 354 A.D.
    15. ISADORE OF ALEXANDRIA – 370 A.D.
    16. EVAGRIUS PONTICUS – 390 A.D.
    17. AMBROSE OF MILAN – 339 A.D.
    18. JEROME – 340 A.D.
    19. TITUS OF BOSTRA – 340 A.D.
    20. JOHN CASSIAN – 360 A.D.
    21. DIODORE OF TARSUS – 370 A.D.
    22. GREGORY OF NANZIANZUS – 370 A.D.
    23. THEODORUS OF MOPSUESTIA – 380 A.D.
    24. RUFINUS – 390 A.D.
    25. THEODORET OF CYPRUS – 393 A.D.
    26. THE MONKS OF NITRIA – 399 A.D.
    27. PALLADIA OF GALLATIA – 400 A.D.
    28. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA – 412 A.D.
    29. MAXIMUS OF TURIN – 422 A.D.
    30. THE MONKS OF CESAREA IN PALESTINE - 430-450 A.D.
    31. PETER CHRYSOLOGUS OF RAVENNA – 435 A.D.
    32. GENNADIUS OF CONSTANTINOPLE – 458 A.D.
    33. BARSUDAILI HIEROTHEUS – 490 A.D.
    34. ALEXANDER OF ABYLA – 540 A.D.
    35. MAXIMUS – 645 A.D.
    36. CLEMENT OF IRELAND – 740 AD

    Quotes by these Christian church leaders are recorded in Bob Evely’s book called
    AT THE END OF THE AGES – THE ABOLITION OF HELL
     
  9. OAT

    OAT Where is the TAO?

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    Hi rodgertutt, thanks for your responses in #7 and #8. That's a lot of information to go through.

    Based on a really cursory glance at your material, can I conclude that for the last 1500 years or so, the doctrine of Christianity was wrongly taught?

    Also, if the words in the Bible were inspired by God, why weren't the words of those who taught from it not similarly inspired for the last 1500 years or so?

    My apologies if by the above questions, I did not do justice to the material that you supplied.
     
  10. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Testing testing

    The thirty seconds time out before my message will post.
    Why is that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  11. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    My favorite part of the story was this part...

    “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

    Can you imagine that it's judgement day, and on that most momentous of days, you still can only manage to point your finger and say, "I told you so."

    What? No neener-neener-neener?
     
  12. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    I'm trying to answer OAT but my message won't post because it says it times out after 30 seconds.
    Anybody know why that is?
     
  13. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    That is only partly true, and here is why I say that.
    Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries.
    Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
    Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History
    also see
    http://hopebeyondhell.net/history.php

    Actually many were, and here is why I say that.

    THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
    GOD’S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY
    http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
    and
    IN THE GARDEN
    http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
    and
    TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
    http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  14. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    When you have a long post or are going to take some time to compose it, when you log in go to the main page with all the forums topics and scroll to the bottom where you will find a part saying "what's going on?"
    Just below that it says:
    Currently Active Users
    Just click on that and it will open a new page.
    Leave that page open and middle click whatever topic you want to address so it will be in a new tab and work on your post,.....
    you will never time out again.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .You're welcome :)
     
  15. OAT

    OAT Where is the TAO?

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    Hi rodgertutt,
    Your post #13 seemed to suggest that only Christian Universalism got its doctrine correct and the rest of Christiandom got theirs wrong. That's huge!
     
  16. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Each person will choose for themselves

    First of all, thanks for the posting tip Shawn.

    I agree OAT that it is a HUGE assertion for me to infer that Christian Biblical Universalism is the "truth." Everyone has their own reasons for believing what they perceive to be the "truth."
    Here are mine.
    I suggest that folk examine the evidence that causes me to think that way and decide for themselves on the validity of that conclusion.

    IMHO the primary issue is the meaning of aion and aionios.

    In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God’s plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times.
    And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words (“ages,” “course,” “end,” “eternal,” and “world.”) to translate this one word.

    And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as “ages.”

    Talk about confusion compounded!

    Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God’s truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!

    Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them.
    Of course God’s glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.

    No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion.
    No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

    Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion.

    The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
    CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
    THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

    Also see
    AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
    An Analytical Study of Words
    (especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

    Also see
    TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
    TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

    The salvation of first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be completed after the first resurrection.
    The salvation of the non-elect will be completed after the great white throne judgment.
    For scriptural evidence that this is so see
    God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
     
  17. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    Hi Roddertutt! :)

    That Muslim didn't explain Islam to you in a nice way but rather just aserted some beliefs of it

    And regarding the eternal nature of hell, well how do you know it's not true? becasue a book, the Bible, that is easy too see and can be confirmed too that is seriously distorted, says so, or it can be inferred from it as so?, surely one cannot base their beleifs on a distorted book my freind?

    but if you investigate the Quran, you will see that every sign indicates it divinity and authenticity, hence when the Quran says hell is eternal, so then on what grounds can we desbelieve in that?

    not sure wether you have seen this post of mines on this issue, but it is my two cents on the justification of an eternal hell:

    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216407-post30.html

    And for a more contextual explanation of islam, here's two more :):

    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216296-post15.html

    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/216297-post16.html

    hope this helps

    Peace :)
     
  18. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Well, it is entirely a matter of faith for a start. :)
     
  19. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Exactly.

    The Bible, a book written by men, interpreting the will of God.

    The Quran, exactly the same.

    Knowing the difference between interpretation and the actual "will of God" is a key part of this and other religious discussions.
     
  20. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    I agree with CZ and Brian.
    We have to take the word of a man that the book he wrote was directed from some divine source.
    But that is just as questionable as Joseph Smith and his angelic inspired book.
     

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