Is suicide really a grave sin?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Amber13, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    As a person who has experienced suicidal feelings let me assure you that no person who has not themselves felt suicidal can relate to the suicidal mind-set. The question of whether or not it is a sin is irrelevant. The pain whatever it is becomes unbearable.

    If you are ever in the company of a person who is intending to suicide, the very worst thing you can do is to deny the reality of that person's feelings. He/she (bloody stupid feminists mucking up our language :mad:) wants acceptance not rejection. If you say for example: "You shouldn't feel like that," or "There is no need to feel like that" this could well push the person over the brink.

    But don't take my word for it. Ask anyone who has been trained to work as a crisis counsellor. You DO NOT deny the validity of the person's feelings. They are real and terrifying.

    You want to commit murder? Then go tell a suicidal person that he/she doesn't need to feel like that. You might just push them over the edge which will make YOU guilty of their death.
     
  2. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    Well that's a weird and spooky notion -- to kill yourself to freak out your estranged spouse.:eek:
    Your other option is mental illness caused by chemical imbalance in the brain. I think you would find this, statistically, to be a relatively infrequent cause of suicide.
    Most people who suicide are suffering some kind of unbearable pain -- and I mean emotional/mental pain. The circumstances of their life are so depressing or overwhelming, with no relief in sight, that continuing to live does not seem to be an acceptable option.

    You remember the great depression in 1929 when people jumped to their deaths from office windows. There was no chemical imbalance, no desire to freak out their spouse, just the realization that they could not continue to exist financially.

    A while back in Ethiopia, because of the drought, farmers were suiciding because they had no way of sustaining their families. There are many, many reasons why people feel that life has become unbearable. Take it from me. If you can think only objectively about this subject, your life is bearable.
     
  3. Sinful Hypocrite

    Sinful Hypocrite Active Member

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    A priest once pointed out to me that the reason suicide is considered the only unforgivable sin is because you cannot ask for forgiveness or repent since you are dead. Any other sin you can be forgiven ,because you are still alive to repent and ask for forgiveness. Suicide is wrong because you give up . Anytime you give up you cannot accomplish anything .

    My feeling is that even this can be forgiven by a merciful God under most circumstances . You must try not to give up though.
     
  4. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    Thanks for your comments. Please read my post again. No-one who has not themselves felt suicidal can understand the mindset of a suicidal person.

    Sometimes it is a conscious decision and takes a lot of courage to go through with it. In other cases it is done rashly without any hesitation. All that matters is to make the pain go away.

    A Catholic at another forum said it was the greatest of all sins. Big deal. When you can't stand the pain any more (and I am not referring to physical pain) you just want to be free of it.

    I would have trouble believing in a God who did not understand why you killed yourself and judge you as a murderer.
     
  5. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    Yes it would be nice for God to have mercy on you. I trust he would.
     
  6. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Big deal.

    It is the greatest of all sins.

    COURAGE?????????

    Defending Suicide?

    TOUGH-LOVE is required!!!!!!!!!!
    Differentiating between obligated-Duties versus Self-Centered Histrionics requires objective intelligence.

    Subjective acts spurned on by melodramtic self-invented self-denial at the cost of others' need to clean-up after a suicide inflictor ---is stupid upon stupid upon ignorance.

    God is His own personality.

    We are spirit souls in a "material-machine-like body" ---for which we are stewards obliged to manage on our on accord ---to relinquish such duty accrues, FROM GOD, the merciful benediction to be re-born in a future countless number of succesive birth(s) ---with a more appropriate "material-machine-like body" that allows the soul to re-start their journey back up until a Human birth is afforded yet again ---and then the "Soul in Human material-machine-like body" starts where they last left-off inregards to their degree of sophistication of the Human Condition.

    Mind you, the above process starts after the suicider's Karma (karma-phalam ~ Fruits of Works) is spent-up while surjourn as a Ghost subsides.

    NOTE: By the term "Ghost", I am referring to the "Subtile/Astral-Body [Mind/Intelligence/Ego]" which remains after the "Gross-Body [earth/water/fire/air/ether]" are torn away at the moment of suicide.

    All such "can't stand the pain any more (and I am not referring to physical pain) you just want to be free of it." ---is mental & false-Ego driven ---such people should discard their False-ego and serve other persons self-lessly.

    Such ego-driven nihilism is also an Ego-Invention sustained by self-engrandisement.

    Learn service to humanity ---rather than, consider your "yearnings and personal disappointments as a REAL-THING of mortal consequences ---Duty is beyond individual desire(s).

    Dharma (duty) is possessed individually and Eternal Dharma is "reciprocal pastimes with Godhead" ---YET, WE ARE SPIRIT-SOULS IN A MATERIAL BODY far from the transcendant abode of God, who is the unlimited & originating reservior-source of all Personality Characteristics. Thus, we are given all facilities to 'Lord-it-Over' in thee material world of repeated birth & death until the Absolute Truth of Gods Personage is sought out with determination, with 'birth-after-birth' practice and perserverence, overturning each and every path possible & praying each and every prayer & experiencing each and every Human-Condition Scenario & experiencing each and every sub-Human-Condition Scenario & experiencing each and every Horrifically-Stupifying Scenario, birth-after-birth since time-immemorial, until 'Absolute Dharma' is revealed by the Super-soul [Godhead localised in each being's heart] and thus "Grace" is obtained and the darkness of ignorance is thus replaced with devotional service.

    Q. If a suicide perpetraitor dies . . . have they fullfilled their destiny?
    and/or
    Has the life-destiny been fulfilled of a 'success-full' suicide perpetraitor?


    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    To wax poetically about the logic of suicide is called:
    "Wound-ology" ---[as borrowed from Caroline Myss]

    Bibliogrophy:
    "Why people Don't Heal and Why They Can" --By Caroline Myss.


    http://www.lauralee.com/myss.htm
     
  7. Diagoras

    Diagoras Interfaith Forums

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    Damned right suicide takes courage and anyone who says different has either (a) never faced the choice seriously or (b) is using the denial as a part of their reasoning not to do it. I know I have not the guts to do it. One of the few occasions I can be proud of being a coward.
    That said I think suicide of an otherwise healthy individual is a waste and very short-sighted. But some people are always going to choose it. It's their lives...what right has anyone else got to judge them?
     
  8. Dragonseer

    Dragonseer Soul Searcher

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    I'd like to point out that my example of revenge-motivated suicide isn't a fabricated notion. I've read stories in which the person who committed the deed left a not-so-sweet note on his/her personage to be found by the family member(s) left behind. No, it's not a pleasant example; but revenge has been a motivational factor in some people's decision to commit suicide.

    I'd also like to point out that I didn't give two options and two options only. In the first case, I used i.e., meaning that is. In the second example, I used e.g., meaning such as. In other words, the second example was just one of many, many possible reasons for which a person may choose to commit suicide.

    I do believe there are suicide cases motivated entirely by physical pain, as well.
     
  9. Sinful Hypocrite

    Sinful Hypocrite Active Member

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    I never read your post , I was answering the question .

    The reason I was told that by the priest was because I was suicidal and he sensed it at that time . I have suffered with serious depression many times.

    I agree with you that others who never experienced it can never understand . This is something that no one of us can judge and I for one do not want that job.:)
    When God asks something of you it may be very distasteful such as being imprisoned or tortured. We are supposed to suffer and persevere. If we give up we will never know what may have been possible. The priest who told me that was trying to help me more than judge suicide as wrong.

    The people I have spoken with about this over the years do generally believe that even this can be forgiven. Even Jesus only mentioned speaking against the Holy Spirit as the only sin that would not be forgiven.
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Suicide is between the one who over-rides the will to self preserve, and God. The reasons are miriad and we are in no position to judge.

    What we consider appauling, may not be.

    What we consider honorable, may not be.

    What we consider cowardly, may not be.

    What we consider heroic, may not be.

    It is between God and the one who found a way to bypass self preservation.

    But for those left behind who loved that one...it hurts something fierce...
    ...all I have to say about that.
     
  11. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I think there are far too many factors around suicide to have a blanket statement.

    Chances are, we don't all agree on what suicide even is. Is euthanasia suicide, if the person is terminally ill? What about a Jain's decision to end their life (in the face of terminal illness) with self-starvation? Or ending one's life through exposure, as many traditional soceities have practiced? In not-too-distant-past Japan, the dishonor of a warrior is thwarted through suicide; is this in any way equivalent to someone committing suicide because of depression or pain?

    Suicide and the cultural construction of it is just far too diverse for me to be able to say if it is or is not a sin.

    Furthermore, suicide is one of those things one can't really be superior about when it comes to the decision of whether to do it or not. Not only is it impossible for a person who has never been suicidal to really comprehend what it is to contemplate suicide, but it's virtually impossible for us to compare pain. This is not only because we have different kinds and levels of pain, but also because people inherently have different capacities for resilience, for contentment, for optimism, and so on. What drives one person to patient sainthood may drive another to depression and suicide. This is not necessarily a choice. People have different capacities.

    I will say this...

    I've found someone after they committed suicide. It is an image that will never leave me, no matter how much I wish it would. I forgave them, and I understood why they did it. Constant physical pain, depression, lack of medical care despite their best efforts... for a year. It still hurt me deeply to find them. It still took me years to not feel angry about unlocking their door, sensing that awful dread, and finding them on their blood-soaked bed. It's nearly 13 years later, and I'm still brought to tears and can remember it like it was yesterday. Suicide isn't pretty and it deeply affects the people who it touches.

    While I've never been suicidal, having dealt with some severe, chronic pain that for years was undiagnosed and at times really horrible, I can understand the draw. I've never reached a point where I contemplated suicide, but I've reached moments where I screamed for God to take me home and meant it.

    My faith sustained me, and in acute pain episodes, still does. My experience of the Divine sustained me. Techniques I'd learned for meditation and soul-journeying sometimes gave me moments of respite when the pain was at its worst. My sense of duty, of my life belonging to God Herself and not to me, of being a servant and believing I had to cultivate a willingness of spirit to persevere... to serve in any way I could, even if sometimes that was only to cry out to God... sustained me. And yes, having friends and family, an understanding husband, my animals, trees, mountains... sustained me.

    My experiences have allowed me to empathize with my students who were suicidal, to hold their hand, to suggest a few techniques to breathe through the worst moments, and to avoid judging them. People generally don't contemplate suicide without having reasons... and usually those reasons are long-standing problems.

    Sometimes people can learn some skills and methods to deal with their pain, ways to see life as worth living, even if it is very, very difficult. Sometimes the right person is there at the right time to provide support. I believe suicide is not just an individual's issue, it's a social issue. Do we provide adequate health care, for both mental and physical problems? Do we have a place in our society for those that have chronic pain, depression, or other disabilities? Do we help them find meaning? Do we make some people outcasts, bullying them, or do we show love to everyone? (This last question particularly relevant to the five recent deaths of homosexual youth who were bullied to death.)

    I don't believe in a God that condemns and I don't believe in hell. I do believe suicide is not an escape, because that the underlying spiritual problems of this world and us as human beings will remain beyond death, waiting for our return. So, in a pragmatic way, I think it's best if we deal with the problems we have now. I also think we cause less suffering to the world, to our loved ones, and most definitely to the unfortunate soul who must find a suicide victim, if we are willing to persevere through our pain. But I also understand why some people don't... perhaps some people can't.
     
  12. Sinful Hypocrite

    Sinful Hypocrite Active Member

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    Another example that came to mind on this subject is Samson --Judges 16-- . He was betrayed by his lover Delilah and lost his hair and subsequently his strength . He was then tortured, blinded, imprisoned, and forced into manual labor for many years.

    He had every reason to give up. If he had no one could have blamed him because he had lost everything of his former life and would never see again even if his strength did come back.

    And as such the story would never have been the same. Maybe God intended his whole life for that last moment in the arena when after slowly regrowing his hair and his strength he caused the whole structure to collapse on his captors.

    This is a good example of how God works in mysterious ways and we should know he cares for us just as much as Samson. If we commit suicide we are telling him we quit the job he gave us to do. He may forgive us as we did not understand but we will not accomplish any good from it.

    Just my humble thoughts that were on my mind about this since yesterday.

    Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on us
     
  13. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    It takes courage for two reasons: (1) it is irreversible (2) no matter what you belief about the afterlife, you will never know until you get there. Are you in the habit of playing Russian roulette? Suicide is like playing Russian roulette with four or five bullets in the chamber rather than just one.

    You might consider those people who really do believe in everlasting torment. Would they face that voluntarily? Of course not. They would only kill themselves when the pain, whatever its nature, overrode every other consideration.

    An important fact of course is whether other people depend on your ongoing existence. In my case, no-one is dependent on me in any way and the only people who would miss me are a couple of people I correspond with in Africa who I have never met and am not likely to meet. But I have become important to them, especially the girl who is an orphan and lost all her family during the civil war in Liberia.

    No-one in Sydney would miss me. They might gossip a bit: "Well Julian always was a bit peculiar" or some such thing, but I would not leave a hole in anyone's life.
     
  14. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Suicide [other than physical-caused; or, as per warrior cultures that esteem pride over acquiescence as a matter of a provincial duty] is anti-social.

    Antisocial personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Antisocial personality disorder is sometimes known as sociopathic personality disorder.
    . . . Ah, dunker Heir Freud!

    What do yogis and the Vedas say?: Personality disorders [other than, chemical imbalances] are "Maya"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)
    IOW, "maya" aka, illusion is an ego-construct that a persons places all value onto as the all-in-all of existencia.

    "We are spiritsouls in the Material world" actually alludes to the more technical & stark fact that "We are spiritsouls in Maya".

    Suicide is an act of aggression.

    Renuciation of worldly Ego and Wealth and Powers allows for penance ---that is the way life is set up. That is the purpose of life.

    As a compensation to the whimsical mind of all embodied souls 'Maya' allows pleasures and its pursuit. Maya [lit, mine (ma) + all there is (ya)] is also defined as Mercy of God ---because it affords all facilities to souls seeking 'Independence' from God's Personage; which allow for any and all to become King-of-the-Heap by hook or by crook without the benefit of having no imposing deadline to meet.
     
  15. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    You demonstrate your ignorance my friend. There is absolutely no correlation between a sociopath (formerly called psychopath) which is an incurable physiological abnormality, and suicidal feelings to which just about anyone can succumb in certain circumstances.

    A sociopath would be the last person to consider suicide because they think only of themselves and have no concern whatsoever for others. A sociopath would kill another person without having any sense of guilt or remorse. As it happens I have been following the misadventures of a certain sociopath for a period of almost five years. Has she tried to kill or harm herself? No. But she has caused immense harm to others.

    The suicidal person would most likely be a person of gentle nature who finds life in this materialist world too stressful.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. The ONLY person who can relate to the suicidal mindset is a person who has known those feelings. All the judgmental stuff that has been posted here merely shows an unwillingness to LEARN about anything outside your own personal experience
     
  16. Dragonseer

    Dragonseer Soul Searcher

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    The entire point of this thread is speculation--i.e., speculation of whether or not suicide is a grave sin. What you call "judgmental" is pure speculation/opinion, for which we fellow members have been asked to share.
     
  17. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

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    OK, whatever. Speculate away. :)

    So the question is not whether it is a SIN but whether it is a GRAVE sin. Or perhaps in Catholic terminology is it a venial sin or a mortal sin? Am I getting close?
     
  18. bodhi

    bodhi New Member

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    Saying that suicide is a sin and should be avoided is like telling children not to do drug. It’s a scare tactic designed to prevent them from ruining their lives. The problem is that the underlying cause that drives some to suicide is never addressed. They do not understand the point of their lives. If we understood our purpose clearly we wouldn’t have to be warned about suicide being a sin. It would be an insane option for us.
     
  19. bodhi

    bodhi New Member

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    It could be viewed that since Jesus knew that he was going to be killed and walked into the situation anyway, that he committed suicide. I believe that his death was not viewed that way because his death came while embracing his life and the challenges that it brought him. He did not fall short.

    Suicide in its many manifestations is about escaping pain.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  20. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    By your own words you state the obvious, Jesus knew he was going to be killed, and knew that he would feel pain, but did it anyway. That isn't suicide, anymore than a soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his friends...wouldn't you agree?
     

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