Efforts Rising to Ordain Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Change has to come from within ... it cannot be imposed from without, except by threat and violence. And the Catholic Church, over the years, has proved itself remarkably resistant to intimidation.

Of course, there are always those who are impatient, or consider their own good is a more necessary benefit than the good of all.

The ordinations are, of course, defective ... so there are no 'women priests' nor will there be until the Church decides in its wisdom that such should be the case.

Whatever one's thoughts and feelings on the matter, this is not the way forward.

In the Anglican Communion, the decision has been made, by a few, to endorse openly gay men as clergy and indeed bishops. Is this a democratic process rising from within? No, its the will of a self-declared elite, notably white and well educated, who insist they know better than anyone else.

St Paul's teaching, on scandalising one's neighbour, applies here.

There is a growing recognition that the historical attitude towards women needs to be examined and questioned. I question it myself, but I do so by the presentation of viable data — the evidence of the activities of women in the establishment and growth of the Early Church, a fact which was sidelined and left to dwell in the shadows subsequently — not by setting up a rival organisation, nor by such stunts as displayed here.

A vocation is often seen as an undeniable calling from God. I tend to view it as a personal disposition. But for God to call someone to a station they cannot possibly fulfil, according to the rule which God has already endorsed as binding, is a contradiction, and God is not one who contradicts Himself.

So it's a personal disposition.

Sadly, part of growing up is coming to the realisation that just because we want something, that does not give us the automatic right to it.

I would rather go down in history — anonymously — as someone who laboured within for a change in the law, in the full knowledge that such change will not come about in my lifetime, than someone who engages in such fruitless and pointless tactics, engaged in cheap theatrical stunts for the benefit of the ego and the media, by which to attempt to intimidate my fellows, and which achieve nothing but fuel the arguments of our critics.

+++

The Catholic Church is the oldest surviving institution in the West, something that a few philosophers have noted is not without significance.

Be assured, had we followed the cultural trend, as so many demand we do, we would have vanished from the scene centuries ago.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Change has to come from within ... it cannot be imposed from without, except by threat and violence. And the Catholic Church, over the years, has proved itself remarkably resistant to intimidation.

Of course, there are always those who are impatient, or consider their own good is a more necessary benefit than the good of all.

The ordinations are, of course, defective ... so there are no 'women priests' nor will there be until the Church decides in its wisdom that such should be the case.

Whatever one's thoughts and feelings on the matter, this is not the way forward.

In the Anglican Communion, the decision has been made, by a few, to endorse openly gay men as clergy and indeed bishops. Is this a democratic process rising from within? No, its the will of a self-declared elite, notably white and well educated, who insist they know better than anyone else.

St Paul's teaching, on scandalising one's neighbour, applies here.

There is a growing recognition that the historical attitude towards women needs to be examined and questioned. I question it myself, but I do so by the presentation of viable data — the evidence of the activities of women in the establishment and growth of the Early Church, a fact which was sidelined and left to dwell in the shadows subsequently — not by setting up a rival organisation, nor by such stunts as displayed here.

A vocation is often seen as an undeniable calling from God. I tend to view it as a personal disposition. But for God to call someone to a station they cannot possibly fulfil, according to the rule which God has already endorsed as binding, is a contradiction, and God is not one who contradicts Himself.

So it's a personal disposition.

Sadly, part of growing up is coming to the realisation that just because we want something, that does not give us the automatic right to it.

I would rather go down in history — anonymously — as someone who laboured within for a change in the law, in the full knowledge that such change will not come about in my lifetime, than someone who engages in such fruitless and pointless tactics, engaged in cheap theatrical stunts for the benefit of the ego and the media, by which to attempt to intimidate my fellows, and which achieve nothing but fuel the arguments of our critics.

+++

The Catholic Church is the oldest surviving institution in the West, something that a few philosophers have noted is not without significance.

Be assured, had we followed the cultural trend, as so many demand we do, we would have vanished from the scene centuries ago.

Thomas
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Not following reason and sticking to old ways simply because of stubborness and an unwillingness to admit to any weaknesses in judgement is exaclty why the Catholic Church is slowly but surely vanishing. Look at the statistics.

God has given us knowledge for a reason and I'm sure that reason is not to ignore it out of tradition.
 
pghguy said:
Not following reason and sticking to old ways simply because of stubborness and an unwillingness to admit to any weaknesses in judgement is exaclty why the Catholic Church is slowly but surely vanishing.
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But that's not what we do ... that's the assumption of those who don't know why we do what we do.

pghguy said:
God has given us knowledge for a reason and I'm sure that reason is not to ignore it out of tradition.
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Tradition is the knowledge. In the context of this discussion, the rest is cultural trivia and self-indulgence.

Thomas
 
pghguy,

The important thing is that we must provide understanding and reassurance to these three women as they deal with their struggles. They need to know that their efforts are not in vain, and that we support them all the way.
 
Hi Nick —

I can understand your sentiments on the matter, but I think this highlights a primary differences between Theosophy and Catholicism as teaching institutions.

As you have told me often, a Theosophist is not obliged to believe anything Theosophy teaches, and as such Theosophy embraces numerous (if not all?) and, presumably, often contradictory viewpoints.

Catholicism is not about how this person or that chooses to construct their individual reality, nor is it about the will or the want of the individual, but rather its about communion with the Transcendent Absolute, and its theoria and praxis are founded upon principles established by its Founder as the Way to such a communion.

Everything is subject to that single principle: "Not as I will, but as Thou wills." Thus humility and detachment are absolute keystones to the Christian way.

Every effort is directed to this end, the one-ness of all within a living, breathing, concrete and corporeal reality — this was Christ's prayer before His arrest and execution "that all might be one, as we are one".

And the virtues: Faith, Hope and Love, Prudence, Justice, Temperance and Fortitude show the way.

The actions and activities so recorded signify none of these. Quite the opposite, in fact.

This is not the way to one-ness Nick.

A secular culture will, of course, seek to impose its own moral values upon all around it. There is no doubt that there is much to learn from contemporary culture, but we should not follow it blindly, 'religiously' — for culture is determined by fad and fashion, and is fundamentally ephemeral.

I find the contradiction in secularism is that although it claims to tolerate pluralism, it is in fact highly critical, indeed intolerant, of any view other than its own — in short, as is evident, everyone is free the believe what they will, as long as it's what we believe.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
But that's not what we do ... that's the assumption of those who don't know why we do what we do.


Tradition is the knowledge. In the context of this discussion, the rest is cultural trivia and self-indulgence.

Thomas
Click to expand...

I've been Catholic my entire life, I know exaclty what we do.

Tradtion is also why the Catholic Church endorsed slavery for centuries. But I suppose that was OK.
 
Thomas said:
So have I ... and I know of lot of Catholics who think like you.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Thomas
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My point exaclty. A good bet is that 100 years form now, if the Catholic Church is still around, there will be either a married priesthood or women priests and we'll be saying the same thing regarding hindsight.
 
pghguy,

You have made a valid point. The Catholic church once taught that the world is flat. Catholics must now be ready to take every doctrine they have and consider that they might be wrong (and the Catholic church has shown every intention not to take such a stand).
 
Nick the Pilot said:
The Catholic church once taught that the world is flat.
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Really? Any evidence for that, or is that just a made-up fact?

Nick the Pilot said:
Catholics must now be ready to take every doctrine they have and consider that they might be wrong
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We do that all the time ... it's called theology.

Nick the Pilot said:
(And the Catholic church has shown every intention not to take such a stand).
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Oh dear ... please can you desist from this ill-informed propagandist and polemical attacks against my faith?

"As you sow, so shall you reap," as the wisdom has it, or "honi soit qui mal y pense."

Thomas
 
Nick the Pilot said:
pghguy,

The important thing is that we must provide understanding and reassurance to these three women as they deal with their struggles. They need to know that their efforts are not in vain, and that we support them all the way.
Click to expand...
This will only work is the support they get is from the Catholic Church (the people of the church). It matters not if those outside the church support their efforts.
 
Q,

It depends on what we (those of us outside the Catholic church) are trying to accomplish. Are we trying to change the Catholic church? (No.) Are we trying to give the three women the emotional support and strength they need to face such unfairness and discrimination? (Yes.)
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Q,

It depends on what we (those of us outside the Catholic church) are trying to accomplish. Are we trying to change the Catholic church? (No.) Are we trying to give the three women the emotional support and strength they need to face such unfairness and discrimination? (Yes.)
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Understood Nick. However, the "greater" influence is in the "Catholics" like myself who also support them in their endeavors to become clergy. The more actual Catholics put pressure on the Vatican, the sooner change will come about.

Suppose my neighbor was Muslim and decided to undergo a personal Jihad (internal review/struggle/soul searching): I could and would offer what support I could as he struggled to excel beyond what he thought he currently was, but it would be those who believe as he does that would be able to provide the stronger influence to help him succeed, as they have a personal and intimate knowledge of both him and of their own ways and understandings, that I simply do not possess...

Does that make sense?

v/r

Q
 
Q,

The Catholic Church has shown that it can change, but only when forced to do so. (I am convinced that the Catholic Church would still be teaching that the sun revolves around the earth, if it hadn’t been forced to renounce such an idea due to outside pressure from society and science.) How much pressure will it take — from within and without — before it is forced to allow women to be ordained? Only time will tell.

I agree that your hypothetical Muslim friend would be more willing to listen to people who truly ‘understand’ him or her, and that he or she would be more easily influenced by them. But the more mature a person is, the more willing he or she is receive constructive criticism that is given in a harsh tone as well as in a loving tone of voice. The Catholic Church needs to rise to such a high level of maturity.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
The Catholic Church has shown that it can change, but only when forced to do so.
Click to expand...
Actually Nick, I think what can be clearing demonstrated is the Catholic Church cannot be forced to change if She doesn't want to. We've had 2,000 years of people telling us how we should be.

The assumption of course is that every age sees itself as 'right'.

I suggest a worthwhile but difficult read is "The Reign of Quantity & the Signs of the Times" by René Guénon, a metaphysician of world renown, and a critique of the modern world. Guénon was a Sufi.

As for attempts by the world to remake the Church in its own image — no chance — we have the divine image we conform to.

And the fact is that were we to change as our critics insist we should, we would have gone a long, long time ago.

On the other hand, the most significant change to happen in the Catholic Church this last century was Vatican II, a change that was brought about entirely from within.

Nick the Pilot said:
(I am convinced that the Catholic Church would still be teaching that the sun revolves around the earth, if it hadn’t been forced to renounce such an idea due to outside pressure from society and science.)
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I'm sure you are, but to be fair, you also think the Catholic Church preached that the earth was flat!

Nick the Pilot said:
How much pressure will it take — from within and without — before it is forced to allow women to be ordained? Only time will tell.
Click to expand...
As stated above, we don't respond to 'pressure', which is, after all, a form of coercion. We do respond to reason and sound debate, and such a debate is actually going on at the moment within Catholic circles, but I wouldn't expect you to know that.

Nick the Pilot said:
But the more mature a person is, the more willing he or she is receive constructive criticism that is given in a harsh tone as well as in a loving tone of voice. The Catholic Church needs to rise to such a high level of maturity.
Click to expand...
Actually, I think the Catholic Church always listens ... what is evidently lacking is 'constructive criticism' and 'a loving tone of voice' ... I certainly see no evidence of it.

I would also suggest that the more mature the person is, the more likely they are to listen to the reasons why the Church acts as She does.

On the catholic Side, The Court of the Gentiles has opened as a forum of debate between Catholics and those who wish to discuss matters with her, no matter how far from God they might choose to stand.

This is just one example of the many areas of debate in which the Catholic Church engages the world, but as ever, unless there is the stain of scandal, there is little interest in anyone's reporting of what the Church is doing.

Thomas
 
Q,

I was recently listening to a religious lecture and the lecturer said that God is always described as a male, and that the Catholic Church has used this as a reason to justify having a male-dominated church. I thought this observation was quite insightful.
 
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