I hate it when people say you should do it their way

Discussion in 'Pagan' started by lover454, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did God come down and say the only way for a magic spell to work is if you light a candle, use herbs, etc. NO he did not. The ones who decided to use props (even at the beginning) were/are humans. So can you honestly say props work, no you cannot. Humans do magic spells, not God. So whatever way one feels the spells should be done then that is the way it should be done. I bet my bottom dollar that if humans either created the spells the way I did or just recited them their spells would work. OR if you did use props and did a spell that someone told you to do on a Friday if you did it on another day it would work
     
  2. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    1
    Please don't double-post. Copying and pasting whole posts and then reproducing them in multiple places on the board could be considered spamming and violates our code of conduct.

    However, I'll leave it this time as the duplicate could be turned into a worthwhile discussion.

    I agree with you that I find it annoying when people insist that their preferred way of doing things are the One True and Only Way. What works for one person, or what makes perfect sense to one person, does not always work the same or make sense the same to others.

    I disagree though with the statement that "we can't say that props work." Herbal remedies, which are really nothing more than less-processed versions of modern medicines, do work in many instances. For many people if they have a headache they can take headache medicine, or its herbal equivalent, and it will make the pain go away.

    And magick is really nothing more than doing things to get results.

    We can pray 24 hours a day for a healing and a patient will not necessarily improve (they might, but they might not!) If we are wise magick-users and employ "props" like herbal remedies or healing techniques that have been known to work in the past in conjunction with the "mental work" part of praying, then we have a far higher chance of actually achieving our goal.

    Magick is based on the theory that everything is connected (we're all part of a huge ecosystem) and that to bend things towards desired outcomes we first need to observe the patterns, cycles, and connections and then judiciously act in order to shift things in our favour. That's what the tables of correspondences so often discussed in magick texts are all about -- attempting to identify those patterns, cycles, and connections.

    A doctor knows when to use a scalpel, and how to use it. When to prescribe medicine, and what kind, and how much. People who work magick and are successful are the same -- they know what tools they have at their disposal, know how to use them, and use careful observation and study to know when and why to use them.

    And that is very different from stating there is supposed to be a One True Way of magick.
     
  3. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wont double post and thanks for keeping this one posted. But how do we really know it is the prop that makes it work. When someone is doing the spell they believe very strongly in their spell, so wouldnt it be the belief of the spell that would make it work. I believe very strongly in my spells and I do them on the computer, once-in-awhile I print them out and throw them out to the wind.

    I still say it is the belief not the props. As I said lets say someone does a spell on a Friday with candles, herbs and their spell works. Now they are going to swear up and down you can only do their spell with the props they use. But they also could have done the spell on another day with or without props and I bet my bottom dollar it would work.
    What I am trying to say is there isnt any way to prove that the props enhance the spell
     
  4. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    1
    How do we know that anything works? By trying, observing results, and then seeing if we can repeat the results. It's the basis of science, and it's the basis of any other endeavour that involves attempting to produce reliable results.

    People who practice magick are advised to keep a diary or journal where they record their work, how they did a ritual or spell, what the conditions were at the time (astrological signs, weather, moon phase, etc.) and most importantly track whatever results or lack of results appeared. The magickal journal is how we learn and grow. It helps us to see what really is working for us, what isn't, and as the journal becomes filled up with notes we can see patterns that we might have missed before.

    Dismissing everything about a spell except for the words that might be spoken is like assuming that having a doctor say "you should feel better now" is all that is really needed to heal someone, and that all the relevant surgeries and medicines are irrelevant.

    Intent and belief are important but they are not all there is to magick.
     
  5. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    It isnt that I am dismissing everything but when people cast a spell they have an intent and belief in the spell. They recite the spell, the props (if used) are just placed in different locations but the feeling of the spell and the words are what makes the spell. If it was the props that made the spell work then why do many people just chant the words and say "Props are not needed". And I think when someone uses the props all the props do is put the caster in the mood nothing more.
     
  6. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    1
    It all depends on the specific spell and what you are trying to accomplish. Sometimes props are not necessary -- but props (like actual medicine for a healing) can mean the difference between a faint chance of success and an almost certain chance of success.

    If the spell is primarily intended to work on a psychological level, for instance to give yourself more confidence in a particular matter, then props are probably less necessary depending on the practitioner. Some people are visual thinkers, others auditory thinkers, and others are concrete thinkers. People who are very concrete in their thinking would probably have far less success with a strictly verbal spell than someone who is a strong auditory thinker.

    If you set yourself up to expect that magick can't produce results then you will get what you expect and will find magick to be a waste of your time. In that way, belief is important to magick. Determined skepticism often results in being unable to see (let alone accept) things that are right there in front of us. If you insist that props do nothing for your magick then for you they will do nothing. For many other people who use magick, though, props are assistants we work with and have their own inherent value. That's why so many people who work magick have at least a somewhat animist outlook (i.e. thinking that Spirit exists in all things.)
     
  7. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really dont think props are necessary. I use the computer to do my spells (incorporating clip art) and I have gotten so many signs that my spells are working. I didnt use an actual banana for a painful erection spell and every where I turn (whether on TV, or in a store) I see bananas. And Iam getting other signs for other spells as well. And I know it is because I believe strongly in the spell.

    I think if people believe that the prop is making the spell work then they dont believe in their spell. I believe in mine so therefore they are or will work when the time is right.
     
  8. DrumR

    DrumR New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hmm. Can I play too?:rolleyes:
    In the spirit of a worthwhile discussion I offer the following.

    Given:
    The existence of gods is a perennial question.
    The existence of multiple gods is a perennial question.
    The existence of magic is a perennial question.
    The literature has many arguments, both pro and con, concerning the existence of deity and magic - in addition to various practices thereof.
    ---
    Given:
    There may be found in literature examples that Belief in god, gods, demons, spirits and magic has existed long before the technologies of steam, electricity, gasoline and diesel engines, radio, flight, atomic power, electronic computers, etc.
    ---
    Should one engage upon the necessary level of research, one might find examples provided, from a variety of sources mainstream or otherwise, of the stated exercise of spirituality and/or magic without the use of external material objects. The opposite to this being that should one not engage in such a search, one may not find such examples.

    Approaching the concept of the employment of external material objects as an adjunct to one's spirituality in a minimalist fashion, such as in Zen philosophy, one may arrive at the conclusion that the computer and clip art have substantively little difference from other material constructs such as candles, icons, staffs, wands, etc.

    One may also extrapolate that the candle and electronic computer have certain similarities in that once the wick for the candle is consumed the candle is of no futher use, as a candle; once the electrical power source is no longer available the computer is of little use, as a computer. It is true that the melted wax from and expended candle may be recast with a new wick to again be of service as a candle just as the electronic computer may be put to use, as an electronic computer, when properly connected to the appropriate energy source.

    Again, from a minimalist point of view, Deity, such as god(s) and/or goddess(es), may also be construed as an impediment to one's spiritual advancement in certain aspects of the Zennist philosophy.

    Example Zen Lesson:
    Q. What do you do if you meet the Buddha on the road?
    A. Kill him.:eek::(:confused::):D

    The fullness of that particular lesson from Zen Buddhism is left for the reader to ponder upon, or not, as is their want.

    From the forgoing it may be construed by a casual reader that those who issue statements condemning the use of physical constructs, and even deity itself, may, perhaps, approach within the bounds of possibly being hypocritical when such statements were uttered by those that employ physical constructs while doing so. Then again, on the off-claw, it might not.:p
     
  9. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    To DrumR I think if I understand what you are saying is that you are agreeing with me
     
  10. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    Whom do you have to market to with the props? ;)
     
  11. lover454

    lover454 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    to seattlegal - I dont understand what you are writing
     
  12. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    that's alright--neither do I.
     
  13. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    1
    Seattlegal -- if I'm understanding your posts, based on a Zen outlook, if we were to take it to the logical conclusion then the "ideal" or most pure form of the spiritual pursuit described would be for one to meditate in a state of sensory deprivation.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems predicated on the belief that what we perceive is all illusion and therefore is to be ignored or dismissed as distraction.

    I understand that point of view but personally I don't accept it as worthwhile for me. We live in a world of sensation and from my point of view (as an animist/ polytheist/ panentheist) Spirit exists in everything -- and to reject the world of sensation as distraction to me seems to be a rejection of Spirit.

    What others are calling "props" I consider to be valuable allies, friends, and companions. They have inherent worth because they are expressions of Spirit, they are Spirit manifest in a form I can perceive. They have qualities, talents, and characteristics that make them unique, just like each of my human friends has qualities that make them unique and valuable friends and allies.

    When I work a spell I consider which of my friends (human, Spirit, and yes "props" too) might be most helpful and willing to assist me, and then I respectfully ask their help. Magick is a dance and I am hardly the only one participating even if I am the only human present at the time.
     
  14. DrumR

    DrumR New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    1
    Those who would expend funds for same, such as Cessna owners?:D
     
  15. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    What is pure?

    We are very good at distracting ourselves. While we can become distracted by the sensory consciousness, it is not our only source of distraction. {I'm always distracted}

    I agree with you that spirit exists in everything

    If they help out with the 'suchness,' then kewl!

    Ahh. The dance part I understand. And I do agree--it is an interactive universe.
     
  16. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    The one you meet on the road.

    Toys will be toys.
     
  17. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    "The tao that can be tao'ed is not the true tao."
     
  18. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    It takes one to toy, and two to tao.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    LOL, touché! :p
     
  20. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are no swords in my hands. :eek::D

    It takes one to write about faith, but two to faith.
    It takes one to imagine love, but two to love.
    It takes one to have a thought, but two to communicate.

    It takes one to spell, but two for there to be magic?!
     

Share This Page