Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by enlightenment, Mar 6, 2011.
Thank you, that is very gracious of you Q.
I think you are talking about a different kind of history to the one I was.
Nahhh, the Later Christians just became arrogant, so God offered an alternative. The Christians, not the Muslims were at fault. The apostle Paul warned us not to be arrogant:
Christianity was started by a group of Jews who broke away from mainstream Judaism. These Jews started spreading the message of Jesus among Gentiles and for most of the last 2,000 years, Christianity has been a Gentile religion.
These Gentile Christians started claiming that Christianity was a universal and independent religion when it was not. This is evident in the way Christianity has been promoted and defended.
There is really no point in Christians converting Muslims when Muslims already believe in one monotheistic God. This was the goal of the Gospel from the very beginning. Paul brings up the issue of "idolatry" a number of times in his epistles.
Christianity was supposed to be a compromise position. It is the lowest hurdle on the ladder of monotheism. The reason why so-called "pagan" concepts were kept in Christianity was because they were not idolatry if the only real God people worshipped was the one true God.
Paul didn't expect the Greeks and Romans to abandon all of their "pagan" culture. He took a liberal attitude toward Greek and Roman paganism. Some people accuse Paul of creating a "pagan" religion, but they miss the point. Paul didn't make Christianity "pagan." The paganism was already out there. Paul simply deemed some of their concepts acceptable. Christians were less "pagan" than outsiders. Christianity only seems more pagan today because it wiped out most of the paganism in Europe. Nowadays, people accuse Christians of being hypocrites.
Unfortunately, many Christians still believe this stuff is actually fundamental to Christianity. Many creeds have been developed highlighting aspects of Christianity that were never essential at all.
But the good thing is, this is all documented in the NT Canon.
I think it's mostly Christians and Muslims that have missed the point, although for most of the 1,400-1,900 years, Muslims have been saying that Jews and Christians went astray and Christians said that Jews and Muslims were astray. Christians forgot the original purpose of their religion and Islam is a response to 7th-century Christianity, by which time Christians had by then started to miss the point.
Although most Christians would argue that it is about Jesus dying for everyone's sins, I don't believe this was the real purpose. It was simply the story told. The story is valid in many instances, but I don't believe it's absolute or universal.
The idea of sin is relatively meaningless without a sense of guilt or outside of a Law System. But quite obviously from Paul's epistles, the "sin" he talks about is associated with a Law System and not some detached individualistic sense of guilt.
Most of the Western world follows secular law, not religious law. For example, driving under the speed limit and paying your taxes is part of secular law. God doesn't care so much if you're a responsible citizen. If they're religious, they're either Christian or Muslim and Christianity as you would know, is not based on a Law System. You wouldn't think God would send you to hell or deny you a place in the kingdom of heaven or world to come if there is no Law on which to rule you out, would you? That was what many people believed at the time, that God "ruled" people out on the basis of Law. Many Christians, however, believe Jesus died for their detached individualistic sense of guilt. This is to miss the point.
Jesus died so that his followers would spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. He died so that they would not only believe that they were acceptable to God, but the Gentiles were too if they worshipped the same God.
Informative as ever, thank you Salty.
It's interesting to see Western people convert to Islam because they want to marry a Muslim. Shame getting in to Islam is a one way street.
Actually, Allah is supposed to have sent 124,000 prophets to try to teach the "message of Tawheed".
i does not have to be depends where you live, although if you leave someone may try and kill you for it.
Of course you are right, but I was responding to this
"Indeed, since this has all become so splintered and confused over time, there is a good argument for saying that god would have a duty to get back now, and pretty much tell the Jews, Christians and Muslims how it is meant to be, from scratch."
Which speficially talks about Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Therefore Allah has corrected those belief systems twice, once with Judaism to Christianity and once with Christianity to Islam.
Well, certainly the non-Muslim governments have been working strategically to reduce the Muslim population and also to 'manage' it. This has been done by implementing puppet, oppressive regimes that are 'allies' to the non-Muslim governments and through various wars (strategy: divide and conquer).
Muslims have been killed in thousands prior to 9/11, and post 9/11 era has seen consistent and systematic attack on the world wide Muslim Community both within the Community itself (through groups like Al-Qaeda) and from the outside (Western invasions and bombardments). That part of the Muslim population that is left to live is usually displaced (such as milion something Palestinians, thousands of European Muslims, etc). The displacement of those Muslims serves the purposes to not have them unified and to make them subservient to the non-Musilm regimes. The goal is to hopefully have them converted to anything else as long as they do not stay Muslim, and to assimilate them so that they do not behave or identify as Muslim.
Angela Merkel's recent remarks about lack of "assimilation" of Muslims in the German society is very telling indeed.
Wouldn't you say that Jews and Christians suffered the same fate in the past? How dominant are Judaism and Christianity, really? In secular countries majority-Christian values have been attacked in various ways to the point that majority of Christians accept many beliefs and things that oppose Christian teachings (i.e. gay marriage, sexual relationships out of wedlock)?
Or, how about the Jewish people? Due to persecutions throughout the history, various wars, etc. how much assimilation and acceptance of non-Jewish values/beliefs had taken place?
There are thousand identifying as Christians and Jews, for instance, today but in practice and appearances they are far from it. Now days we have something called 'atheistic' Jews too? Obviously, being Jewish is not about belief anymore, but rather only about certain ethnic group for many.
By the way, rise in fake conversions to Islam have increased in the post 9/11 era. The pattern for fake converts is very consistent:
1) Prior to conversion, the person was quiet, nice person--a faithful church-goer or similar
2) Something happened in his/her life that disappointed him/her
3) They "found" Islam and became "violent" Muslims
Check out "jihad Jane", Joseph Cohen, Adam Pearlman, and many others. Some Muslim American representatives have even complained about the use of agents provocateurs (aka 'convert' Muslims). These usually use the most violent interpretations of islamic texts in order to 'find' extremists. Unfortunatelly, the victims of their prey are usually the Muslims who are themselves uneducated in the Islamic teachings.
Here is one article about violence-mongering agents provocateurs:
Watch For The Violence Mongers: Mosque Informants, Agent Provocateurs And Disruption In The Muslim American Community.
Indeed they are seeing something they dont in Christianity and Judaism, and to be frank, they see the Truth!
have you seen the sublime Quranic verses enlightenment?; does not it's style, the things written, it's theme, it's scientific acuracy, etc, etc, shout out 'DIVINE' at one?, and this is what they dont see in the Bible Or Torah!
For example, just take this verse for example for it's sheer oozing of Divinity:
Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.
(Holy Qur'an 2:255)
now do you know what i mean?
but dont the Quran say Torah and Bible are from God too?
not quite but it does say Torah and a book called the Injil are from God; the latter being revealed to Jesus [PBUH]; THE Bible might contain remnants of the Torah and Injil but it was written by others weren't it rather than being revealed to Jesus pbuh]?
And regarding the Torah, the Quran says/indicates, plus it can be intellecutally deduced and biblical scholars also say it has been distorted
thus is distortion the only reason why they do not adhere to the other two religions?; why dont they just regard God as One [not trinity/athropomorphic etc] and Jesus [pbuh] as His Messenger and be a Christian or a Jew; well the reason for that is, the Quran clarifies that Islam is the best religion and more importantly, it has abrogated all one's sent prior to it:
Allah sent mankind and jinn His prophetic messengers (upon whom be peace), who were trustworthy, intelligent, truthful, and fully conveyed their messages. He protected them from sin, and from every physical trait unbecoming to them, though as human beings, they ate, drank, slept, and married. They were the best of all created beings; and the highest of them was him whom Allah chose to be the final seal of prophethood, our prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace).
Though the Sacred Law of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) superseded all previously valid religious laws, it was identical with them in beliefs, such as tawhid or "oneness of God", and so on, a fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) emphasized by saying, "Let none of you say I am superior to [the prophet] Jonah," (Bukhari, 4.193: 3412), for the illumination of Jonah's tawhid (upon him be peace)--under the darkness of the storm, the darkness of the sea, and the darkness of the belly of the fish--was not less than the illumination of the Prophet's tawhid at the zenith of his success as the spiritual leader of all Arabia (Allah bless him and give him peace). The light of their message was one, in which sense the Qur'an says, "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers" (Qur'an 2:285), showing that previous religions were the same in beliefs, and though differing in provisions of works, and now abrogated by the final religion, were valid in their own times.
As for today, only Islam is valid or acceptable now that Allah has sent it to all men, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said, "By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104). This hadith was also reported by Muslim in his Sahih by `Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf, and others. It is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran
"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Qur'an 3:85) and many other verses and hadiths. That Islam is the only remaining valid or acceptable religion is necessarily known as part of our religion
Universal Validity of Religions
And i'll add to all that, that the appeal of Islam to sincere seekers is so high that, an incident like 911 was a catalyst for the highest mass conversion to Islam in the USA rather than put people of it; why?; for when they got intrigued to look into islam to see wether there is really terrorism in there, when the truth faced them in the eye, their only response was, we hear and we obey oh Lord!, and they came into the religion of the truth in their droves, just when it's victimisation was about to sky rocket!
[41:53] "We will show them Our signs in the universe and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that This (Quran) is the truth".
islam is more of a disease than a religion, as for mass conversion in the USA quite frankly do you have any proof of that ? or are u just testiculating ?
i want to apolagize for my statement, "islam is a disease"
it was un called for and I am sorry.
so you was a Muslim before and now you hate Islam? ; what is it that riles you up so much?
how can a person be put of from Sheer perfection?
is it the 'kill apostates' principle that puts you off, or the women have to wear hijab one?
talk to me nicey and they all can be explained
Let me see if there is something that i can fix, and i'll try and do it in a jiff; so what is it that gives you so much trouble and made you move out on the double, and now is troubling your brain; lets see if i can put that trouble down the drain!!!
and then you can sing, last night a Muslim saved my life!
Yusuf Ali:... And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
lol very funny
to be honest I'm done with islam and have been for a long time, you can pm me if you wish.
just occurred to me that music is haram so it would be a sin for me to sin a kuffar song in islam.
There are those who bash Islam, but there are also those who say Islam has to be everyone's favourite religion. Why does Islam have to be everyone's favourite religion?
I've had my disagreements and arguments with NiceCupOfTea, but today I think it is with you!!!! Islam doesn't put me off as much as it used to, but that doesn't mean I don't get uncomfortable with those who say Islam must be everyone's favourite religion. As long as Muslims make modest claims about Islam, I don't mind. When Muslims start getting patronising and condescending, that's when I get annoyed.
But for now, let's see if we can manage this conversation.
What makes you think he needs saving? Don't you think he can look after himself? First and foremost, everyone is an individual.
I suppose injecting a Baha'i view into the discussion would have negative effects on this thread? I think that with some open minded research into the matter, we can see the truth of all these questions.
Firstly, Judaism, the Jews have returned to Israel, the new Jerusalem has been established in Acre (various spellings), the faith was founded by a Davidic descendant, and it complies with a certain time prophecy made 2300 years ago (I can quote this if there is interest) as well as other prophecies being met such as those in Daniel.
Secondly, Christianity, much of Revelation of John has been translated, pointing out who exactly Muhammad was (one of the witnesses) and leading all the way to Micheal being on the throne. In the Baha'i perspective, Armageddon happened during WWI where a battle is recorded at Har Megido (sp) which saved the life of the Master. There is extensive teachings on this...
Third, Islam, the Messiah did indeed come from the Islamic world, the Medhi was from a hated sect and his name was Ali Muhammad, Dajjal prophecy has played out and Judgement Day is upon us. Ishmael was promised a nation, and this has been fulfilled, it is now time to rejoin your brethren.
Here is an extensive list: Religious Unity
There are many instances where to enter the faith there is a grand consultation, each prior dispensation must accept the others in a way they currently deny:
Judaism: Must accept that Christ and Muhammad are not heretic
Christianity: Must accept that Jesus died on the cross and rose in a spiritual body, for Jesus died, not Christ.
Islam: Must accept Muhammad has written his prophectic cycle ends at the day of Judgement, and that this isn't an act of destruction of any physical thing.
Of course, this is quite difficult to accept for most, but it is required of all to investigate truth for themselves. It seems to me the choices are continuing to disagree and risk further hostility with ever more powerful weapons, or reconciling and forging a future together.
As an added bonus, Krishna and Buddha are both included as Manifestations, although the teachings have been skewed - for instance, Dharmakaya and Brahman are other names for the One God in these tongues, even Hindu's accept that each of their God's are actually merely qualities of the Absolute utilized to make worship easier, thus our neighbors in the East are also included in this dispensation without having to convince them they're wrong.
You can find aspects of each prior dispensation with the writings, but the most important is the visions for the future...
While a few in this thread have said they feel it is wrong to pick one religion and say it is the only true religion, Baha'is would say it is man who has clung to specific Manifestations above others, Baha'u'llah writes the following addressing this:
Thus, while Baha'is declare Baha'u'llah the Manifestation for this Age, he also says that he himself is not actually above any prior Manifestation - they are all entirely equal, and have always shared the same truths in ways best understood by their followers. Baha'is uphold the writings of every prior Manifestation and state that all should seek light from wherever it shines, Baha'u'llah merely shines the light for this age and you can see it in sites like this where the world Faiths are coming together to discuss their beliefs in a mature way (for the most part )
Separate names with a comma.