Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
I disagree that heaven is eternal. Heaven is just as temporary as hell.
arthra
Baha'i
I found a few excerpts from the Baha'i Writings on "hell" and will share them here..
They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and doubtest.'
~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 132
"Paradise is attainment of His good-pleasure and everlasting hell-fire His judgement through justice."
~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 157
"Be ye a rich treasure to every indigent one; consider love and union as a delectable paradise, and count annoyance and hostility as the torment of hell-fire."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 356
"The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds. Firstly, the rewards and punishments of this life; secondly, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, "Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 323
Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving
God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining
to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after
death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life
everlasting.
Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of
God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and
loss of the Eternal Favor.
He (the Bab) definitely declared that these terms
have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent
ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material
heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the
imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and
that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.
~ Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 20
It appears that one person's heaven is another person's hell, and one person's hell is another person's heaven.
Hari Krishna
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Heaven is God's abode. It is the spiritual world. Everything there is conscious. In the Vedic literature, spirit is described as composed of sat, chit, ananda. Sat is existence - which is eternal, chit is consciousness and ananda is bliss.
So Heaven is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. Hell is the absence of that. It is temporary, and full of suffering and ignorance.Which world are you living in?
Hari Krishna
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I know what you mean, but what you refer to as heaven is not heaven but material pleasure.
Heaven is where God is, it is his abode and this defines heaven. Where God is, that is heaven.
Suffering only happens in hell. No one likes suffering and no one would consider it heaven to be suffering.
Etu Malku
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And what happens when you find out there is no god?
I disagree, the understanding of 'Heaven' will find its greatest relevance to us in the understanding that there will always be a balancing of bliss and grief during our existence, and both of these extremes are a part of life as we truly know it. By introducing factors that are irrational, based on faith and unexplainable there will only continue to be doubt and unbalance.
Revel in your yin & yang, embrace both Light & Dark!
Hari Krishna
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How is it possible to find out there is no God? Can you ever be certain something does not exist? By contrast, if God does exist, it must be possible for us to know that.
Heaven is not irrational, based on faith or unexplainable. It is a real place, with real people and it can be experienced. Heaven's existence can also be supported by logical explanations.
There is no grief in heaven, no suffering, no death. You assume that the material emotions we experience in this life are what is meant by ananda or bliss. Material emotions are only like a shadow of real spiritual feelings. In a shadow the general outline of the real thing is represented, but none of the substance. This bliss is not something that comes and goes depending on our mood, it is actually a part of who we are. Sat, chit, ananda is what we are made of, this is the substance of spirit and the ingredients that the spiritual world is composed of.
IowaGuy
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Good point HK; one can never "prove" that something does not exist.
One would think that there should be some good evidence, if God wanted us to know that he exists. What evidence have you experienced?
Where exactly is this "real place" located? In the observable universe?
OK, I'll bite. What is your logical explanation in support of heaven? Why is heaven more logical than rebirth leading to nirvana/enlightenment? Or more logical than nothingness?
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
IG,
I believe in all three -- heaven, nirvana, and enlightenment. I see no discrepancy at all between the three ideas.
I believe in all three -- heaven, nirvana, and enlightenment. I see no discrepancy at all between the three ideas.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I'll go with the four solaces in the Kalama Sutta:
17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."
"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.
Makes the question of hell moot...
17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."
"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.
"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.
"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.
"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.
"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.
Makes the question of hell moot...
The heavenly Kingdom is literally outside this universe but consists of spheres like this one but make up of much more light and much much bigger. However the spheres could travel to this universe like a ship can travel.
Basstian
In Search
Interesting quote... "Some people are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good."
Nothing I can do in this life would earn all my mind can imagine heaven could be. But faith in heaven also allows faith in grace and forgiveness of my shortcomings. The flip side of that is in my belief I can lose those gifts. Live a life with nothing to look forward to no reward no consequences nothingness only the reward or suffering gained from actions in the here and now. That to me would be Hell and it could easily be lived right now.... the thought of nothing when my heart stops
Nothing I can do in this life would earn all my mind can imagine heaven could be. But faith in heaven also allows faith in grace and forgiveness of my shortcomings. The flip side of that is in my belief I can lose those gifts. Live a life with nothing to look forward to no reward no consequences nothingness only the reward or suffering gained from actions in the here and now. That to me would be Hell and it could easily be lived right now.... the thought of nothing when my heart stops
Excuse the two posts:
All heavenly beings in the true condtion have wings literally. The pics are not lies. Even god in his true form has wings. When a heavenly being incarnates into the human body they are sealed which miracles with the body identifies the body. The wings are not seen because of the human body. Human bodies do not have wings , never have never will. When a incarnated being is brought back to the prehuman divine condtion the true self is seen. GOD can manifest himself as human ect. If you were to see him in his actual condition he would be huge and has wings.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Wings often symbolize protective abilities/tendancies/capacity.
Well the light is more tightly packed but has wings cause its bigger and more spread out. This is the only way I know how to explain it. However your correct with the protective ect. When the wings are wrapped around someone its a protection.
Like a bird protecting its mate. Or a bird protecting its young ect.
Eternity is measured like a year. So you have eternities. Infinite life is neverending. An eternity is encoded in the bible. A thousand years is one eternity measurable to one year.
Hari Krishna
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The question "Does God want us to know he exists?" is a separate question from "Does God exist?" Hari Krishna philosophy would tell us that God just wants to know us, to have a loving relationship with us. But God will never force us to acknowledge him. If we choose to deny or ignore him, he honours and respects our choice.
If we assume there is a God, wouldn't the presence of religious belief in every human society be "evidence" that God wanted us to have the choice to know about him? Guru's, saints, messiahs etc are people who have seen something wonderful about life and God and communicated it to others. Other people have valued their wisdom so much their words become holy, recorded as scripture or divine revelation, and we invest our faith in them.
It's not like all the people who claim such things are insane or ratbags. Their testimony has some value. Certainly enough value to be considered worthy of further investigation. If someone I trust tells me something, I am more likely to take it seriously.
Otherwise, why is this God rumour so persistent among humans? Some say it is ignorance and humans believing such things were primitive. Then why in this scientific age is religion still so prominent? There is such a thing as an intelligent theist. Some would argue it is just a natural human instinct, then why has this instinct arisen? Surely the explanation that the universe has a purpose is just as rational as nature did everything and there is no such thing as the supernatural.
It is difficult to say what evidence I have experienced and communicate anything meaningful to you. I can only say that my experience of practicing spiritual life has convinced me enough to pursue it with a high priority in my life. It has convinced "me". I can't show you my evidence, all I have is my testimony and my own decision that there is enough evidence to seriously investigate.
Are you asking for co-ordinates to a geographical position in space-time? Do you think you can fly a spaceship to heaven? Where is your consciousness located? Is your consciousness a real place?
Is consciousness or the observer "in" the observable universe or is it by definition on the outside looking in? Isn't consciousness the thing who defines what the observable universe is? Can you observe the observer?
I wasn't claiming that heaven is more logical, only countering the claim that it was illogical. The heaven hypothesis is part of a bigger hypothesis that there is a God and all the associated logical explanations of who we are and why this world exists that flow from the existence of God. Every religion or philosophical stance gives slightly different intellectual explanations of the phenomena. You could have a whole discussion forum on all the different aspects of it
L
Lunitik
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This is exactly what enlightenment is, and yet it is not possible for mind to come along, it is impossible to fathom that with mind. There will be an impression, this is the minds interpretation of what has happened.
For instance, in my experience, there was a certain happening which I thought lasted only a few seconds. I entered into that at around 4pm, came back out - returned to normal experiencing - at 10:30pm. The exhilaration felt was immense, yet it didn't even occur to me how long I'd been in it. It didn't even register that now it was night time, I simply knew I'd traveled home and ever since I have been trying to return.
The impression of the experience was merely that of non-duality, of having no border between inner and outer, no barrier because I simply was not there - I merely observed relative to this bodies position. What has been instilled in the time which I cannot recall though? I only know it was pure love.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Dang it, Lunitik, I'm worried about you!