Hell

[Bardus71]

I am interested to know & explore if the concept of Hell and eternal punishment is purely a Christian preoccupation. Are people of the Jewish faith also as concerned about this possibility in the hereafter or is the focus on Hell introduced in the New Testament? Also, is this concept reflected in other religious or spiritual beliefs & traditions?

 

[Hari Krishna]

In the Hari Krishna religion (Gaudiya Vaishnava) hell is considered to be this material world. As such, it isn't eternal but temporary. Hell is also understood to be a state of consciousness and not a geographical location in space and time.

Heaven is the positive spiritual reality and hell is the absence of that. So heaven is eternal, hell is temporary. Heaven is full of knowledge, hell is full of ignorance. Heaven is bliss, hell is suffering.

The Christian idea of eternal hell must be wrong. How can the idea of eternal hell be reconciled with a merciful and loving God?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

The Christian idea of eternal hell must be wrong. How can the idea of eternal hell be reconciled with a merciful and loving God?

I'd like to counter this in two ways. First, does it really have to be wrong just because you and I don't understand it? Perhaps other people understand it or it is beyond human understanding.

Secondly, can merciful be subjective? I believe my idea of mercy can be very different from other peoples idea of mercy. So perhaps people had a subjective notion of their god being merciful. OR there is an objective idea of mercy which their god is while it is different from my subjective idea of mercy.

 

[Hari Krishna]

I'd like to counter this in two ways. First, does it really have to be wrong just because you and I don't understand it? Perhaps other people understand it or it is beyond human understanding.

Secondly, can merciful be subjective? I believe my idea of mercy can be very different from other peoples idea of mercy. So perhaps people had a subjective notion of their god being merciful. OR there is an objective idea of mercy which their god is while it is different from my subjective idea of mercy.

I don't think it's wrong because I don't understand it, but because it's contradictory and illogical. How can God be merciful if he condemns people to 'eternal' suffering? There is no element of mercy whatsoever in never ending punishment.

Whether you consider mercy objective or subjective, the meaning of mercy is forgiveness. For there to be forgiveness, there must be a crime to forgive. If there is eternal or never ending hell - it is not possible for any mercy to be a part of that. There is no chance of forgiveness. Even if we assume its true - what crime could justify never ending punishment?

Personally, I think the idea that God condemns people to hell is a defamation of his divine nature. God isn't punishing anyone and he is not spiteful or vengeful. He isn't responsible for our suffering. We have only ourselves to blame.

I also I have an objection to the idea that hell can be eternal. Only spiritual things are eternal. Heaven is eternal, hell is temporary.

 

[wil]

I'd say most often a Christian preoccupation, tied to original sin and a whole lot of dogma....thankfully a lot of Christians are moving from that perspective.

And as I know it, the Jews who wrote most of the books in the bible do not have this preoccupation.

Muslims do as well though, Buddhists don't, Bahai, I don't know....

 

[Dream]

The ancient Shinto religion of Japan had a place called Yomi, where both the dead good and dead bad went to be miserable for all eternity.

Some of the ancient Greeks had a similar concept called Hades, where all the dead went to live under the rulership of the god of the underworld, a bad god to be under. I'm guessing he was presumed to be bad for the reason he kept the dead from us. Perhaps if he had even the faintest niceness he would occasionally let individuals come back. Prototype of the devil? I don't know. I got these factoids from Hell - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[radarmark]

As one of those Chirstians who have moved away from that perspective, I believe the OT Gehenna was combined with Hades to yield Hell. It really came about a control thing... what good is shown by someone if they only behave rightly to avoid it?

And as Hari Krishna sez... how does the concept of eternal damnation (extending even to peoples who never heard of Jesus) play with the concept of a Just G!D. Does not. Or with a merciful G!D? Does not.

Yep, if I am mistaken in this I will be standing in the pit along with.... Ganhdiji, Buddah, and few others.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Bardus,

I would like to put forward the idea that hell in the original biblical writings was not eternal, and that the idea of an eternal hell was mistakenly added later. So to answer your question, according to my belief system, the biblical hell was originally non-eternal and the same as other belief systems.

 

[luecy7]

So what is the length of time in these other religions until a person achieves enlightenment, or whatever attainment there is to attain? 20 years? 40 years? 60 years? 3 life times? 100 life times? 1,000,000 life times? 10^52 life times?

 

[IowaGuy]

So what is the length of time in these other religions until a person achieves enlightenment, or whatever attainment there is to attain? 20 years? 40 years? 60 years? 3 life times? 100 life times? 1,000,000 life times? 10^52 life times?

That of course depends on one's actions in life, one's karma.

I personally don't believe in either a literal rebirth/reincarnation or a literal heaven/hell. But IMHO the advantage of a rebirth belief is that it keeps one striving forward, pushing for constant improvement, focusing on one's actions and the results/consequences thereof. The incentive is always there, one has never "reached the goal" as Nick alluded to earlier. And one doesn't have the fear of death which a belief in hell can create.

In contrast, many Christians that I know seem to think that "being saved" is the end goal in life; that once they're "guaranteed" a spot in heaven and not in hell, that they are good to go in life. That they no longer have to strive to improve themselves or the lot of those around them (or at least their place in the afterlife does not depend on these works). Because, in the end, this world is not their home; a better place awaits them. As Nietzsche would put it, their life in the present moment is distracted by the otherworldly.

 

[radarmark]

I like IG's idea. Kinda similar to what I posted on "know thyself". Sitting around an eternal heaven or suffering in an eternal hell seems a little dualist. I like "merging with the Kosmos" in either case as a goal. And just like our "normal self" seems (IMHO) a construct made up of individual moments, perhaps transmigration extends that thread forever, or at least until we all return to the Divine. Any way, it makes sense in terms of "karma" = "cause and effect".

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[seattlegal]

I like IG's idea. Kinda similar to what I posted on "know thyself". Sitting around an eternal heaven or suffering in an eternal hell seems a little dualist. I like "merging with the Kosmos" in either case as a goal. And just like our "normal self" seems (IMHO) a construct made up of individual moments, perhaps transmigration extends that thread forever, or at least until we all return to the Divine. Any way, it makes sense in terms of "karma" = "cause and effect".

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

There is a Buddhist concept that if you examine the concept of "self" and look for it, all you will find is a heap of karma.

 

[luecy7]

That of course depends on one's actions in life, one's karma.

I imagine for some that could be a very long time. Perhaps there is the definition of eternity.

 

[seattlegal]

I imagine for some that could be a very long time. Perhaps there is the definition of eternity.

Interesting! Perhaps we can get bananabrain's help with this?

eternity:

Strong's H5703
`ad
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future

a) ancient (of past time)

b) for ever (of future time)

1) of continuous existence

c) for ever (of God's existence)

from the root Strong's H5710

`adah
1) to pass on, advance, go on, pass by, remove

a) (Qal) to pass on, put on

b) (Hiphil) to remove​

Perpetual motion machine?

 

[IowaGuy]

I imagine for some that could be a very long time. Perhaps there is the definition of eternity.

Yes, I agree. And that's one of the reasons that repeated physical rebirths until enlightenment doesn't make sense to me. What if the sun engulfs the earth (a few billion years from now) before one reaches enlightenment? Nick the Pilot responded in a previous thread, to that same question, that if earth no longer existed the rebirth would then take place on a different planet or in a different universe. But that doesn't make much sense to me either, as we don't know whether such a place exists. YMMV.

 

[Basstian]

Solomon said "The dead know nothing"
Revelation said the sea gave up the "dead" and I saw the "dead" both small and great.

So I take it the dead do not know they are being judged.

Revelation then goes on to say that death and hell are cast into a lake of fire.

At that point hell as a storage place for the dead had served its purpose and was destroyed and not eternal?

I hold on to the verse Now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face.
I dont understand how it all works right now and thats ok with me.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Basstian,

That's a good quote and it fits perfectly with my idea that hell is not eternal.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Revelations 20:14

If Hades/hell will be thrown into a fire, it means it will be destroyed -- which is exactly what my belief system teaches -- and shows the impermanence of hell.

The idea of a "second death" also fits perfectly with my idea of Avichi, which is quite different (and much worse) than hell.

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Hari Krishna]

Eternity is not a long long time, it's the absence of time. Temporary is the opposite of eternal, it means temporal or existing for a time only. In this temporal world everything has a beginning, a middle and an end. The spiritual world is eternal. No one is born, no-one dies.

Physical re-birth would seem to be a fact. Re-incarnation means to make flesh again. Most people only relate it to being re-born in a body after death, but in fact from the moment of conception until the moment of death our body is constantly being made flesh again or transforming - this is metabolism. We are constantly re-incarnating in this very lifetime, and the final stage in this process is called death.

Enlightenment can't be measured in time, its an achievement. If we don't take the necessary steps to achieve it, we won't reach it no matter how long we wait. It's not just a question of ordering it and then enquiring about the delivery time. It can happen in one moment or take many lifetimes.

In Bhagavad Gita it says that any spiritual progress we make is never lost. Even if we are unsuccessful in achieving the goal this lifetime, we will start again from the point we have reached in a future birth. Enlightenment, heaven and hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. They transcend space and time. They exist in a different dimension of reality.

 

[luecy7]

Eternity is not a long long time, it's the absence of time. Temporary is the opposite of eternal, it means temporal or existing for a time only. In this temporal world everything has a beginning, a middle and an end. The spiritual world is eternal. No one is born, no-one dies.

Physical re-birth would seem to be a fact. Re-incarnation means to make flesh again. Most people only relate it to being re-born in a body after death, but in fact from the moment of conception until the moment of death our body is constantly being made flesh again or transforming - this is metabolism. We are constantly re-incarnating in this very lifetime, and the final stage in this process is called death.

Enlightenment can't be measured in time, its an achievement. If we don't take the necessary steps to achieve it, we won't reach it no matter how long we wait. It's not just a question of ordering it and then enquiring about the delivery time. It can happen in one moment or take many lifetimes.

In Bhagavad Gita it says that any spiritual progress we make is never lost. Even if we are unsuccessful in achieving the goal this lifetime, we will start again from the point we have reached in a future birth. Enlightenment, heaven and hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. They transcend space and time. They exist in a different dimension of reality.

Per the gospels, Jesus said the earth has an end, and heaven has an end too. Yet, something seemingly temporary like his actual words still do not pass away. Do you think your words are temporary?

 

[Hari Krishna]

Per the gospels, Jesus said the earth has an end, and heaven has an end too. Yet, something seemingly temporary like his actual words still do not pass away. Do you think your words are temporary?

The earth has an end, but not heaven. Heaven is eternal, never changing, with no beginning and no end.

Jesus's word's or my words are both temporary, although the ideas and the spiritual reality the words describe are eternal. The spiritual truth is eternal and unchanging, but it is described in different ways according to time and place and the people being spoken to. The essential spiritual truth can take any number of outer forms and still remain the same.