Would The World Be Better Off Without Religion?

Thanks, Nick. Just finished it. If one equates "religion" with "esoteric spritualism" and "Religion" with "exoteric theology", I could (almost) side with Greyling and Chapman. They did bring up some very good points, as did the Rabbi. I just do not care for D'Souza's vein of Christianity.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows!
 
Nick that is an interesting topic of would the World be better without religion. I can honestly say that and I think history backs this up that when you take God out of the affairs of man you see the worst in humanity. A classic example is Hitters Nazi Germany. By removing the standard of a divine righteous God you’re left with human values. Humans on their own will steal, destroy, and kill. By having God in the picture it allows for something greater than us. That we stand accountable for our actions regardless if we see that accountability in this life. That debate seemed not to focus on the moral benefits of religion and more how religion divides people. Even if that was true I don’t think it overshadows the benefits of a religion. Hope after death, morality, and a framework for viewing this world. I liked the debate it did seem to go all over the place. Ultimately I don’t understand why people would think that a God who loves them, created them, and wants a relationship with them is a bad thing. God loves us so much that For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
 
It really depends on which side of the coin you look at. As the philosopher pointed out, the Rhineland and Jerusalem and (I would add) Albeginsian and Illyrian Massacres of the Crusades, the Reconquista, centuries of Pogroms, the genicide of Native Nations in the Americas were all done in the name of the "Christian God". They are (1) more serious than Hitler (because they were done in the "Christian God"s name and (2) more widespread (the total number dwarfs Hitler and Stalin and Mao added together--their internal genocides, not counting war dead).

Any pretense that this "Christian God" is better than Hitler is pure propaganda. Until people of the standard christian faiths face up to that and admit more blood has been shed in a mistaken cause using Jesus' name, the world will have to keep a constant eye on them. Not that we should not watch out for Nazis and Stalinists as well.
 
Whitewater,

I understand what you are saying, but let's look at the other side of the question. Some people think that a belief in God gives them a right to do bad things to people who do not believe in God, or at least the kind of God that the first group of people believe in. Would you agree with me on this?

As Radar says, The Spanish conquistadors came to America, forced the indians to convert to Christianity, and killed any indian who refused to do so. Did you know that people do these things in the name of God?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Whitewater,

I understand what you are saying, but let's look at the other side of the question. Some people think that a belief in God gives them a right to do bad things to people who do not believe in God, or at least the kind of God that the first group of people believe in. Would you agree with me on this?

As Radar says, The Spanish conquistadors came to America, forced the indians to convert to Christianity, and killed any indian who refused to do so. Did you know that people do these things in the name of God?
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i think you could argue that The Spanish Conquistadors were driven by money and power not by Christianity.


however on the whole the word is probably better off without religion if religion is a fixed rigid dogmatic belief system.
 
NCOT. Individually you may be correct. But then the indisers of the Third Reich were likewise driven by money and power. However... it was the doctrine of the Church (both Catholic and Protestant) that "conversion" (to include genocide) was the will of the "Christian God". Subtile difference, I realize, but important, IMHO.
 
Ben Masada said:
Not really. IMO, the world would be better off if atheists learned to apply the theory of probability also as far as God is concerned, as possibly the Creator of the universe.
Ben
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Ben - how exactly do you think atheists believing in a creator God would make the world a better place? Would it make them more loving & compassionate, less violent?

As I'm sure you're aware, many historical wars were fought not by atheists but instead in the name of a particular god or religion. And much of today's hate and discrimination is spread via religious philosophies.
 
Very insightful, IG. If an atheist or Buddhist (or whatever) is good, would belief in a Creator God make them any better? I do not believe so. Similarly, if a Zoroastrian, Jew, Chistian, Muslim. Sikh, or Bah'ai is bad, does belief in a Creator God mitigate their actions? I do not believe so.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Whitewater,

I understand what you are saying, but let's look at the other side of the question. Some people think that a belief in God gives them a right to do bad things to people who do not believe in God, or at least the kind of God that the first group of people believe in. Would you agree with me on this?

As Radar says, The Spanish conquistadors came to America, forced the indians to convert to Christianity, and killed any indian who refused to do so. Did you know that people do these things in the name of God?
Click to expand...


It had nothing to do with God but with man only. We have unlimited freedom to use our freewill the way we please, as long as we are aware of the law of cause and effect. People can do anything in the name of anything else. It does not mean that whosoever name we use to do any thing in, becomes responsible for what we do.
Ben
 
IowaGuy said:
Ben - how exactly do you think atheists believing in a creator God would make the world a better place? Would it make them more loving & compassionate, less violent?

As I'm sure you're aware, many historical wars were fought not by atheists but instead in the name of a particular god or religion. And much of today's hate and discrimination is spread via religious philosophies.
Click to expand...


If you reread my post to which you have posted this reply to, probability was the word I used. Atheists seem to have an inherrent aversion to the idea of God's existence. This, according to Psalm 14:1 is simply saying of how foolish they are. It is so little to add God's existence to the concept of probability to avoid the Biblical charge of being fools. The Psalmist's charge is not against the belief in the probability that God exists, but against the certainty that God does not exist.

So, to answer your question, yes, I believe that atheists would be less violent against theists if they found a place for God's existence in the concept of probability. Some of them in atheistic forums have become such an expert in ad hominems that in a face-to-face discussion, they could even appeal to physical violence, IMO.
Ben
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Whitewater,

Some people think that a belief in God gives them a right to do bad things to people who do not believe in God, or at least the kind of God that the first group of people believe in. Would you agree with me on this?

As Radar says, The Spanish conquistadors came to America, forced the indians to convert to Christianity, and killed any indian who refused to do so. Did you know that people do these things in the name of God?
Click to expand...

Nick,

You are absolutely right that people have done horrible things in the name of God. I wish it wasn’t true. That doesn’t tell me that religion is wrong but that humans are sinful. If I try to play Mozart’s Jupiter on the piano by reading sheet music you will quickly learn that I have no musical ability whatsoever. Now there is nothing wrong with the sheet music what is wrong is the person trying to play it. In the same way God and the Bible are not wrong but we as sinful humans get it wrong sometimes.
That doesn’t take away from the fact that Christianity makes sense of who we are in the world. All of us need a framework in which to understand reality. Christianity also gives life a sense of purpose. While I’m sure you could argue you find these in other things. There is still the unquie truth claim found in Christianity.


Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If Jesus were a liar, why would he die for his claim, when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? Christ said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.
 
whitewater said:
There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend..
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That is just plain WRONG, there is not ONE iota of evidence that this Nazarene ever existed.

Feel free to show me some evidence
 
Whitewater,

There is one thing you and I agree on; good Christians will go to heaven. Let's see if we can find other things we agree on. Interfaith discussions are so much better than interfaith arguing and preaching, don't you think?
 
Ben Masada said:
So, to answer your question, yes, I believe that atheists would be less violent against theists if they found a place for God's existence in the concept of probability. Some of them in atheistic forums have become such an expert in ad hominems that in a face-to-face discussion, they could even appeal to physical violence, IMO.
Ben
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How many modern-day violent conflicts are the result of atheists targeting theists?

If believing in a creator God leads to less violence, why is there so much modern-day violence between the Abrahamic faiths? i.e. Jews vs. Muslims; Muslims vs. Christians. They all believe in a creator god, don't they?

So, back to my original point, I don't see what difference converting to a belief in a creator God would make on an atheist's actions. If anything, there might be less violence in today's world if there were no theism. There would then be no "infidels", no "God is on our side", no "crusades", etc.
 
Here is a webpage of anti-organized-religion quotes.

Religious Quotes and bumper stickers

Here are some examples from the webpage:

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it." — John Adams, 2nd president of the U.S.

"Organized religion is like organized crime; it preys on peoples' weaknesses, generates huge profits for its operators, and is almost impossible to eradicate."

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire.


~~~


Here are a couple from this webpage on fundamentalism, not organized religion, that I really liked:

"The mind of the fundamentalist is like the pupil of the eye: the more light you pour on it, the more it will contract."

"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong'."
 
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