What is the problem with Islam?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by BigJoeNobody, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I decided to open a thread due to the overwhelming misconceptions people have with Islam. I welcome any criticisms to the RELIGION. This includes texts, and history of the prophet Mouhammed (PBUH), and links to the other Abrahamics, and views generally accepted by Muslims of the other Prophets such as Noah, Moses, John, Jesus, David, Jonah, etc (PBUTA). I do not want to get into talk about what the Caliphs did or what Saudi/Iraq/Iran does, as they do not hold the key to the religion. People are fallible. God is not. Let's keep it about what we believe Allah has told us, and his prophets conveyed.

    Please be respectful when asking questions, but as far as I'm concerned bluntness will be tolerated. (there is not supposed to be a NOT after will). I do ask that IF I can answer your question, you not continue with examples of how certain people see these answers differing unless it holds contradiction to what I am saying based on Quran or Sahih Hadiths.

    When I say "I", I invite any Muslim on the board to answer, but keep in mind this isn't a "Listen to Me" thread, but rather a "here is my explanation" thread.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  3. EdgyDolmen

    EdgyDolmen Well-Known Member

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    You know the problem. It is radical thugs operating under the guise of Islam. ANY group attempting to impose its will through such atrocious means is a large problem. No misconception here...
     
  4. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    wil, I can't watch videos from work, If it is a series of anti Islamic points you would like answered please post them in the form of a question or statement. Please make sure they are things YOU find to be incorrect via doctrine/ethics/etc.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    BJN, you can judge what I posted when you have the opportunity to see it.

    And yes Edgy, it is the thugs that are the problem...just as the thugs that lied and sent US soldiers to Iraq are not representative of the US, or the Mafia is not representative of Catholics, and the KKK was not representative of Christianity...

    We need to stop calling these thugs Muslim...and call them out as the criminals they are.
     
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  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Edgy, I appreciate the post of good intention to show the modern problems in society. I am trying to establish this thread as more of a doctrine questioning thread where certain people can post questions and get answers to questions like "Why follow Islam when it doesn't give rights to women?" (If someone thinks Islam does not, ask and I will answer, or any Muslim) or "How can Islam be true if...". In other words what do people have a problem with Islam about. I expect there to be a few people who say "Islam is evil because... (insert misconception that will need to be explained here)". Even if the poster doesn't think it is a misconception (which I would prefer to answer from these posters).
     
  7. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    Could you tell me what Islam teaches on the Christ's cruxifiction?
    I have heard something before, but it was very vague.
    Did Mohammed address this in detail?
     
  8. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I understand your purpose and it is a lofty one. From my point of view there is a problem though. Any answers you respond with are, in the end, your perception of Islamic scripture. That is the whole problem with all religions in a nutshell. In the end it all comes down to personal interpretation.
     
  9. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I think that is a beautiful example of a good hearted non-believer(assumed). And I cannot say she is necessarily wrong about anything. Since she makes very few hard and fast decisions on meaning, she seems to be well versed in the broad context.
     
  10. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I would say that it is somewhat debatable. From Quran, Although I have heard scholars that say Jesus (PBUH) died on the cross, but was not cursed (the point of crucification in Jewish background) I tend to go with the literal interpretation of the Quran in that Jesus (PBUH) did not die.

    Mouhammed (PBUH) did not discuss it too much, from my readings of Hadith. (Mind you we do not believe the Quran is Mouhammed's (PBUH) teachings, but rather God's word direct, as delivered through Angel Gabriel to Mouhammed (PBUH). Mouhammeds teachings/sayings/actions are recorded in Hadith, and whereas many are very important, they are not as regulated nor as authoritative as the Quran.) But I am no Scholar, nor a great mind of Hadith.

    Please read no further if you do not want my opinion of the link between these Quranic verses and Biblical texts.


    In Matthew, Mark, and Luke all the Apostles were watching the crucifixion from afar (assumed on top of the hill). This makes logical sense since they would have also been wanted as followers of a blasphemer, along with the mother and Mary Magdeline who all would have been very publicly known. It is possible that they received information that he was crucified, and accepted it knowing his sentence and the thoroughness of the Romans. When he appears to the Apostles again, the first 3 gospels state he showed them his hands and feet to show that he was really him (most Christians assume this is to show the holes). According to John, Thomas shows doubt that Jesus (PBUH) had returned and demanded to see the holes, to which he placed a finger in it. Doubting Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This was just to show a possible explanation of how the Biblical texts MIGHT line up with the claims of the Quran.
     
  11. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Whereas I see your point, I hope that I make it clear that these interpretations are only my opinion. They are also shared amongst many, if not most, Muslims. To the point of consensus amongst most. I wilcome any of the other Muslims to disclaim anything I say if it does not coincide with their understanding, or add any details they deem necessary. I don't plan to take a topic that is debated and say it is the only view, unless it is extremely clear and undisputed in my knowledge or other Muslims. I'd love to discuss with you your beliefs sometime as your demeanor is in no way that conducive to the scriptural aspects of Shaytan/Satan found in any scripture I have ever read. (especially Quran). But that is another thread on another day. For now may the peace, blessings, and mercy of Allah be upon you all. "Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi wa barakato"
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    BJN, you oughta search for some posts by MuslimWoman she also was a christian who converted... had some great insights...

    but let us allow you to tell us about the treatment of women...comparing the Taliban, and no education and Saudi with no driving and burkas/head scarves, hijab etc....as to whether their laws are Quranic, and should be tolerated.
     
  13. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I think you don't have questions for yourself, just wanting to clear up the common ones.

    I can say that it is my belief that in Islam, women are more empowered than in any of the Abrahamic faiths (possibly others, but I am not a student of other religions), at least from a scriptural standpoint. All Muslims are encouraged to be educated (at minimum the ability to read). Here is a website that has an entire section on why girls/women are encouraged to be educated... The Importance of Girls’ Education in Islam

    There isn't a single verse which talks about cars, carts, carriages, etc., much less one that refers to women not being allowed to operate them. There are passages that say a woman should walk behind a Mahram (SP?) man (someone she is married to or is of family and unmarriable by Islamic Law), and many scholars agree that the passages that refer to this are more of a security ideal than a one is better than the other. The times in Mecca were quite bad and the idolaters which shared the land were always willing to take advantage of easy target women who were unescorted.

    Hijab, referrs to decency clothing prescribed for both men and women. Men's Hijab is less stringent, only stating that he MUST cover his privates from waste to knee (or thigh depending on translation) whereas a woman must cover her breasts, cleavage, adornments, and privates. This has long been believed to be caused by men's desire being more easily enticed. Whether that is true or not, won't be answered in a IF post. Past the privates and breasts, however, There is not much else prescribed in Quran. There are Hadith that state the Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) was asked which areas may be shown (a female questioner) and he pointed to his hands and face. Now there is debate that he meant the whole head/ and whole arms, which would be logical, but tradition in arabia dictates a woman should be wearing a headscarf. (as it was in the Torah and NT) And the debate will go on. Since it is not specified that men must ensure women wear Hijab (even that which is a must) the idea of law requiring it, IMHO, is non-Quranic. The veil even moreso, as when a lady asked Mouhammed (PBUH) about the veil, he said it is better. He never said it would be required, neither did the Quran. Basically IMO the laws we are usually against as westerners are generally Imposed recommendations. Forcing people to do what is harder and more unpleasant. This usually is caused by political figures wanting to dehumanize IMO.

    All in all this Ayah tells me (mind you ME) that these acts against women are forbidden. How can one live with a woman in kindness and still treat her like a second rate citizen?
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Last question good one.... so again...Saudi...no driving...Taliban...no education... when are folks gonna say that is non quranic? When is equality gonna exist and folks eliminate this walking behind nonsense?
     
  15. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I'd say there are Hundreds of scholars that describe the requirements as non-Quranic. They aren't the ones in power of nations or terrorist organizations so noone here (US/UK) listens to them. I would say it isn't necessarily wrong to have a woman walk behind a man for security even now. And not same IMO is not the same as not equal. Whereas most Muslims believe a woman should walk behind a Mahrem man, and some would say it devalues the woman, it also puts the protection of said woman as a responsibility of that man. The woman has no responsibility to protect the man. Now can a woman walk next to a man and accomplish the same requirement, IMO yes. Even if she is close by and in front. I personally see no problem. If the woman goes without a man, she is responsible for her own protection, and that is equally valid, but IMO it is still BETTER if she had a protector.

    This is the concept I think both Muslims and Non-Muslims in general miss in talking and prescribing. Just because something is better or best way, doesn't facilitate necessity. Necessity states that it must be done, Better would earn more reward or facilitate the necessity with more ease or effectivity, Best Fulfills all the necessity and the better and adds even more reward or facilitates the necessity with the most ease or effectivity.

    I would say that if you look at the US Muslim population, there have been great strides to accomplishing what you have prescribed. Yes there are still women who do not drive, but most (in my experience) CHOOSE not to do it. I see women being encouraged into further education including Masters and Doctorates. I cannot pretend to be able to control what Taliban or Saudi does. And I don't understand how certain people think that me, or all the western Muslims, or all the "Liberal" Muslims have any say in what they do. We denounce acts as non-Islamic, and support acts of the people who do have the power to stop them. I'm not sure what else anyone can expect from us. I didn't see any Christians in the US jumping off the couch to go yell at the tank drivers in Ukraine when Russia pushed into its territory. Or lning up to go to congo to stop Joseph Koni. Why must I, a US Citizen, be required to go press Taliban, Saudi, Iranian,etc. to change their ways before people can accept what we say is our religion?
     
  16. farhan

    farhan Well-Known Member

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    Will, believe me, you wont find many muslims who take taliban or sauds very seriously. But they get a lot of air time on western media, and so people think all muslims believe/practice what they do.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    the issue as I see it...if non muslims get involved in fighting taliban....they are thrown is as anti muslim....when they are simply figting the taliban's oppression...

    the problem is always finding out who the oppressors are...

    the walking behind to protect?? absolute BS in my book.... If I were to need to protect my woman.... (that sounds bad enough) I surely could not do so if she were 3 or 10 spaces behind me. I'd have her at my side, in front, behind depending on where the trouble is perceived....

    I am not saying you as an individual....but just as we Christians separate ourselves from the KKK or the Westboro Baptists.... we shouldn't expect others to say it...we need to say it and repeat it.
     
  18. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    my answer to your walking behind has already been answered. It is an old tradition. Physically speaking you should be able to protect your wife, daughter, mother, etc as long as they are closeby. But if someone were displaying their privates on an upcoming street could you warn her? Is this not a form of protection as well? Is it required IMO that a woman walk behind? No. I am saying it is a generally accepted criteria. Reason aside, I think I have given a couple reasons why it MIGHT be that way, whether it is or not.

    As for proclaiming non-stop. We do. Much more than Christians denounce KKK or Westboro publicly. You may not think I personally need to go and fight the Taliban to prove that I do not approve, but there is certainly a group that does.
     
  19. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    I had seen a slightly different translation before, that went something like they killed him not,but was made to appear so to them.

    It actually says in one of the gospels, he gave up his life, it was not taken from him.

    As to what christians understand, he knew it was coming, was willing, he wasn't overpowered and crucified as if they took his life against his will, but layed his life down willingly.

    As I understand Christianity was established at the time of Mohammed, if he had something different to say on this subject to what Christianity taught, how come he didn't? Or did he address it more
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Someone displaying their privates??

    Seriously, it doesn't make sense that a woman walk x paces behind you for protection...it is clearly for dominance.... I am the one that leads.

    I tend to walk my friends away from trouble not toward it...
     

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