Jesus died: we're all saved?

iBrian

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Something that perplexed myself a little today.

From the mainstream Christian perspective is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

If so - then with regards to the Crucifictionm why does it matter if anybody "follows" Jesus or not? If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?

Or are we?

Discussion starter. :)
 
Jesus died: we're all saved?

This only makes sense if you are believer in the Jesus 'concept' and all the writings pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth.

In fact it is like saying a blood sacrifice has been made in order to 'save' humanity from something.

A religion that appears to put a blood sacrifice at its heart, and one that celebrates by the drinking of his blood and eating of his flesh, symbolically, metaphorically, seems to me rather archaic to say the least.
It also has overtones that could only be described as 'primitive' in terms of blood rituals.

That I do not remember Jesus having been said to state he came to save the whole of mankind is perhaps due to my having missed something in the texts, but the fact remains, that if we are indeed 'saved', why are there no material and objective signs (evidence) of this today, where wars and torture, starvation and misery, materialism and disease still hold sway over humanity. Nothing but human efforts seem to stave off, or ameliorate, these concerns, and there is precious little of that at the moment.

To put medical progress down to God's intervention, for example, seems a rather pointless exercise, because the important fact is that some control over AIDS, for example, can now be achieved, if the money and political will can provide for it. To even argue that medical successes, just as an example(!), are evidence of a 'concerned' 'God' whose Son died to 'save' us all, is stretching thigns rather, isn't it? Yet that is what some apologists claim.

I seem to remember long ago, Brian, discussing 'Hell' on his first Internet Community, and forgive if I am wrong, but the thesis seemed to be that the poetic view, the mythological view, is something that has accrued through time to today, and has little to do with the original 'words' in the Bible. If that is what we are saved from, perhaps all we have to do is wait and see, when the grim reaper arrives at our door.

If we ARE saved, what are we saved from?
What in fact, does the purported death of the Christ, have to do materially with that? Where, and what, is the evidence?

The only evidence lies in the hearts (and souls?) of the faithful, the believers in this religion. :cool: and perhaps there is nothing wrong with that?
 
Well said Blue,

Mario Winan came to my shool, sang his song and said the reason he had got as far as he had (Famous Pop/Rap Star) was - well, I as expecting him to say the old education but no - through God.

So I thought say he's right. Forget school I thought lets go and pray. If I dedicate my life to God will I become a famous celebrity?
...No

(not that i'd like to be a celebrity and not that Mario Winan represents the views of intelligent christians)
peace
 
I said:
Something that perplexed myself a little today.

From the mainstream Christian perspective is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

If so - then with regards to the Crucifictionm why does it matter if anybody "follows" Jesus or not? If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?

Or are we?

Discussion starter. :)
This is a great question. Yes Adam committed original sin and Jesus did die to atone for it but he also died to atone for every other sin ever committed. Original sin is what keeps us from heaven but lack of it doesn't keep us out of Hell. Modern Faith alone Bible alone Christianity fails because the only time the bible uses "faith alone" is to say that it isn't enough Jas 2:24. Hell is separation from God a separation we as Humans create with the sins we commit. So what we do does matter because if we separate our selves from God with sin then whether or not the guilt of original sin is Gone and the gates of heaven are open we stay that way upon our death. Basically we are capable of being in two states one of separation or one of Grace. We choose and when we die we remain in that state for eternity. Christ’s death simply allowed us to have the second one not automatically put us there. One of my favorite sayings is "Christ may have made us with out our say but he won't save us without our corporation"
 
Blue said:
If we ARE saved, what are we saved from?

The second death. But "we" are not saved from it; there is no we. I as an individual will stand before God on the Day of the Lord, and will receive my judgment. So will everyone else.

Jesus will be the one judging.
 
I said:
Something that perplexed myself a little today.

From the mainstream Christian perspective is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

If so - then with regards to the Crucifictionm why does it matter if anybody "follows" Jesus or not? If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?

Or are we?

Discussion starter. :)
"Many are called, but few are chosen..." We are given stories to try to understand this Brian. I think the story of the seeds sewn is the strongest hint for us, concerning Christian Faith. On the beaten path, in shallow soil, in the thicket, and in deep rich soil. Depends on the person and where they are in life. Seems that only a quarter of the seeds sewn are harvested.

v/r

Q
 
I said:
If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?
In my opinion, it's more about following Jesus example of life then only beliving in him. His sacrifice was to help us open our eyes and be aware of the existance of sin in order to avoid it. He had forgived our sins, but he always added not to do it anymore.
 
Brian-I have had similar questions like this. I have spent a lot of time reading the Bible, reading the different translations and trying to figure out how the Bible was put together. Basically, what I have discovered is it is a completley illogical religion and faith(although a part of me does believe in it). A lot of people try to explain their beliefs in christianity very abstractly or metaphorically and lately there is a lot of mixing in "spirituality" with general christian beliefs is what I have found.


Generally, from what I know there are two views on this.
Yes, Jesus died for all sin, for everyone's sin as JM said and that it is up to US to choose whether we are going to believe in him and take his offer up for him to be a sacrifice.
OR-(to me this is more logical) Jesus only died for HIS people. His people were "chosen" before the earth was created-he died for their sins.
Now, here is something I grappled with before discovering how "messily" the christian writings were put together-\

If god is loving, and all knowing, then when he created everyone, he knew some people were just going to be "made" to go to hell, I guess you could argue that somehow at the time of creation he gave us this opportunity to choose on our own, separate from him but I don't buy this because when he created us he would have known our entire psychology and where we would end up which means

there are a lot of people who basically were just created to spend eternity in hell.

how is this a kind God? well from God's point of view (which is the true one right) I guess God could say this is

The bible contradicts itself a lot, Jesus says I have a new law, Jesus also says Whoever does not follow the old laws (it is really bad or wahtever) but his new law contradicts the old law

A lot of the Bible is based on Paul's writings (the new testament) Paul NEVER knew Jesus!! He used to torture the Christians and kill them before becoming converted, after Jesus's death. Also St.Augustine's writings ahd a huge influence. It is so bizarre to me because so much of what Christian's say is not in the Bible. And the old testament also technically has two creation stories, plus Constantine supposedly burned down all these libraries with some of the original writings on Christianity when he converted, also Gnosticism I believe had a heavy influnece on the Mormon religion which is interesting.\

Then when you look at christianity not only do you have all these different translations you have orthodox, protestant, catholic, it is Very confusing!!!
After reading an interesting book on Angels, they talked about how Yawheh (or however you spell it) was actually the Devil in some of the original texts, he was the God of the material world, and somehow it got confused and people started thinking it was the God to worship. I don't know how true it was but the book was very interesting.

Speak(ing) of the Devil
In Sufi texts there is a tale that originially when God created the angels (lucifer included) that he told the angels Only bow down to me...
Well, when God created man, he asked the angels to bow down to man,
Not wanting to disobey God's original commandment, and because Lucifer loved God so much he only wanted to bow down to God, Lucifer did not bow to man.

keeping in mind God's easily provoked anger) God punished Lucifer by separating him from God for ever.

To Lucifer, this was the most horrid thing since he loved God so much, so humans became his vilest enemy since they had been the cause of his banishment, separate from God forever....
 
aladdin said:
If god is loving, and all knowing, then when he created everyone, he knew some people were just going to be "made" to go to hell...

there are a lot of people who basically were just created to spend eternity in hell...

how is this a kind God? well from God's point of view (which is the true one right) I guess God could say this is...

To Lucifer, this was the most horrid thing since he loved God so much, so humans became his vilest enemy since they had been the cause of his banishment, separate from God forever....

Are you more compassionate and loving than God is?
 
Marsh said:
Are you more compassionate and loving than God is?
Whats you're point?

Aladdin what you say is very true but you've got to keep in mind that none of the Bibles are Gods exact word they are all peoples interpretations of Gods word so they will be different.
Isn't that what a Christian would say?
 
I have always wondered why the dead of Jesus, is called a *sacrifice*. From what I read, at its' time, there didn't seem to be anything ceremonial/sacrifical about his dead at all.

I presume that because Jesus could of saved himself from this death, but didn't, it is considered a sacrifice.

However, it doesn't seem this way to me in its reading. I always felt that Jesus was expecting something to intervene before the Cruxification.. Thus why he said.. "Eloi Eloi, why have thou forsaken me."

On a side note, Jesus seems very compassionate. Healing the sick etc.. God however shows no evidence of being compassionate at all in the bible. I guess I could be missing something in its reading.

I do believe *God is compassionate though, from my own experiences.
 
Kaspar said:
Whats you're point?

Well, Aladdin calls God's morality into question, and I want to know if it is by accident or if he really believes that God is immoral.

Essentially, Aladdin suggests that Jesus died for no reason. If God created us knowing that some of us would go to heaven while others would go to their destruction, there is absolutely no need for Jesus. He also suggests that Jesus contradicted the word of God, which obviously implies that Jesus was not the Son of God, since he himself acknowledged the law that he (apparently) subsequently contradicted.

And so I am interested in knowing the writer's motivation. Although this is a Christian forum where we discuss Christian topics, not everyone here is a Christian, nor even acknowledges Jesus. That's fine; I just want to know who is who.
 
very true but you've got to keep in mind that none of the Bibles are Gods exact word they are all peoples interpretations of Gods word so they will be different
I believe many Christians believe that the Bible in the original Hebrew, Greek &/or Aramaic(sp) is the Word of God. I often hear of people referring to the Bible as the word of God, that is what separates it from other religions I have heard people say but I am sure there is also the opinion that it is, as you said, our interpretations of what happened, but why would God have an imperfect book written about the most important event and the events leading up to the most important event in history(if you are a christian).

<In regards to what Marsh brought up> In my post, I did not mean to "assert" anything about God, although I am sure it seemed like I did.I just meant to bring up some questions that I know some of the people I have spoken with who do not believe in Jesus Christ bring up.

I actually do not like to discuss my personal beliefs in God (or in Jesus) I do like to bring up the philosophical questions surrounding the existence of God and also some of the questions surrounding the texts of the documents that the Bible is based on.

From a historical point of view I absolutely do not think that Jesus died for "no reason" (although this term can be taken in different ways). Obviously, Jesus's live had an AMAZING impact on people--If you mean in an *eternal* sense I am suggesting that Jesus died for no reason, I really did not mean to suggest anything about that because intellectually and from historical documents, which is the only way I am really willing to discuss Christianity in this forum, I have no idea, I do not htink that is something I can know.

Now I Think it is VERY interesting that you said
Are you more compassionate and loving than God is?
What a great point!!! That does really get to the crux of the matter and the point that I was trying to make---which is from our understanding, it seems, logically like God is kind of cruel (well at least to me) if he just created so many people-when he knew Adam would sin, because is not God all-knowing? So he knew that he was basically bringing into existence many humans who's eternal destiny was torment and suffering in Hell. Why would a kind and loving God do this?

Obviously, humans are very limited in their scope of vision and we can not see the full picture, and I do believe perfect love encompasses justice (which can mean great suffering (*in an eternal hell??*)for some of the tormentors and abusers who are on Earth)

Anyway, I did not mean to imply anything or convince people one way or another I am just curious though, why do you think God created these humans that end up in hell for eternity.

For the Believers:::do you think it is because at the time of his creation of Adam & Eve, or the first humans, he did not know that humans would sin, separating themselve's from God's love until Jesus was sacrificed? (so then God is not all knowing right?)

Or is it because part of God's perfect plan means many humans will end up separate from God's love (in hell) for eternity?

What are your thoughts?
 
aladdin said:
I believe many Christians believe that the Bible in the original Hebrew, Greek &/or Aramaic(sp) is the Word of God. I often hear of people referring to the Bible as the word of God, that is what separates it from other religions I have heard people say but I am sure there is also the opinion that it is, as you said, our interpretations of what happened, but why would God have an imperfect book written about the most important event and the events leading up to the most important event in history(if you are a christian).

<In regards to what Marsh brought up> In my post, I did not mean to "assert" anything about God, although I am sure it seemed like I did.I just meant to bring up some questions that I know some of the people I have spoken with who do not believe in Jesus Christ bring up.

I actually do not like to discuss my personal beliefs in God (or in Jesus) I do like to bring up the philosophical questions surrounding the existence of God and also some of the questions surrounding the texts of the documents that the Bible is based on.

From a historical point of view I absolutely do not think that Jesus died for "no reason" (although this term can be taken in different ways). Obviously, Jesus's live had an AMAZING impact on people--If you mean in an *eternal* sense I am suggesting that Jesus died for no reason, I really did not mean to suggest anything about that because intellectually and from historical documents, which is the only way I am really willing to discuss Christianity in this forum, I have no idea, I do not htink that is something I can know.

Now I Think it is VERY interesting that you said What a great point!!! That does really get to the crux of the matter and the point that I was trying to make---which is from our understanding, it seems, logically like God is kind of cruel (well at least to me) if he just created so many people-when he knew Adam would sin, because is not God all-knowing? So he knew that he was basically bringing into existence many humans who's eternal destiny was torment and suffering in Hell. Why would a kind and loving God do this?

Obviously, humans are very limited in their scope of vision and we can not see the full picture, and I do believe perfect love encompasses justice (which can mean great suffering (*in an eternal hell??*)for some of the tormentors and abusers who are on Earth)

Anyway, I did not mean to imply anything or convince people one way or another I am just curious though, why do you think God created these humans that end up in hell for eternity.

For the Believers:::do you think it is because at the time of his creation of Adam & Eve, or the first humans, he did not know that humans would sin, separating themselve's from God's love until Jesus was sacrificed? (so then God is not all knowing right?)

Or is it because part of God's perfect plan means many humans will end up separate from God's love (in hell) for eternity?

What are your thoughts?
It is not wise to step on people's toes, when dancing with them. They might bow out the next time they are asked :D

God's perfect plan, is for all Humans to be with Him. Man, however, often has other ideas. That is the imperfection that plagues God's perfect plan.

God is the perfect toy maker. Man is the child with the broken toy (we call life). The child takes his toy to the toymaker and says, "Fix it". But every time the toymaker tries to fix it, the child pulls it back and yells, "you aren't fixing it right!" So the toymaker gives the toy back, just as it is, and the child stays miserable because the toy is still broken. The toymaker can fix the toy, but the child must let Him fix it right. And sometimes the child needs patience...not a virtue in great abundance for most "children", wouldn't you agree?

What? It is Christmas after all ;)

v/r

Q
 
From a traditional Christian viewpoint (not my own, but seeing it from their perspective), consider an example posed by one of my own.

Let's say you are poor and in debt beyond what you have any capability of paying. I have enough money to pay all of your debts and completely eliminate them and I am completely willing to do so for you. In fact I have written you a check to cover every single one of them. Until you accept the gift (cash the check) I am offering, you are still just as poor and in debt. The means for eliminating the debt is there but you are refusing to accept it so you are still in debt.

Therefore, in this understanding, Jesus died to pay for all the sins of all mankind BUT we have to individually accept what he did for us in order for our sins to be forgiven. If we refuse to accept his gift we are still in debt for the sins we commit. And to accept the gift requires an assent that what you are doing is real.
 
Marsh, POST 6, you said:

The second death. But "we" are not saved from it; there is no we. I as an individual will stand before God on the Day of the Lord, and will receive my judgment. So will everyone else.

Jesus will be the one judging.


What kind of an answer is "The second death"? What does it mean?

If I may be critical, Marsh, you conceive, within your heart, that there is a 'you' that will 'stand before God'. That's fine, but is only you, and your affective nature and nurture telling you that. You validate that. It is just an opinion, a subjective opinion.

I don't share your personal claims.

There is no difference between us there, but our affective selves, our feelings, faith and heart!

The fact is there is NO evidence for a 'second death'. I face one death. There is no evidence of a second, if that is what you meant.

I really disagree with your point of view when you declare "So will everyone else". You are, in saying that, implying that we all face YOUR and share your personal conception of a (monotheistic) single God.

That is a little presumptious of you, isn't it? Are you not proselytising what can only be a personally validated faith you hold dear too?

I see nothing wrong in you believing how you will.
I am not being nasty or awkward.
What I am objecting to is you elevating your personal faith to some kind of ultimate truth applicable to all - beyond your personal faith and personal validations. It has to remain your personal opinion and nothing more or less.

Does it apply to those of the Islamic faith? Does it apply to a Jew? Does it apply to a Pagan? Does it apply to an Atheist? Does it apply to a Sikh? Does is apply to a Jain? What makes your personal validation worth more than anyone else's. What you have stated is far from humble presumption. It assumes all these often good and faithful believers are wrong. That's a hefty matter to claim for anyone.

Just a few thoughts, you understand... But how would you answer them?

Incidentally, how you know that God's son, Jesus, will do this judging? Are you confused about the doctrines surrounding the concept of the Trinity?

Peace to you.
 
From my perspective there are many deaths in life, each ending is a death and each new beginning is a birth or rebirth.

Again it would be interesting to know the original translations and interpretations of these words.

The way I understand the salvation is through rebirth of the self, reuniting with the divine self whilst in human form. In doing so one raises and makes a leap of consciousness into the heart.

Salvation and preservation of the true self, Jesus showed us the way, the path home to peace, love and being part of the true brotherhood of man/woman. Loving beyond measure, sharing, caring and creating the Kindom of Love. The saving force is here to create the Kingdom of GOD and heaven on earth.

As it says in the bible the old earth and the old heaven will pass away...I feel this relates to our perceptions/views/realities thereof.....

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
That is personally validated view, SacredStar, though I always worry when people start making transcendental-type claims as a basis for their affective beliefs.
I worry that they border on delusional.

Perhaps it is because I have sometimes had to deal with the wholly delusional believers, in a medical and psychlogical context. When they reach the stage of declaring themselves a God yupon Earth, or they actually are Jesus on a second visit... I simply become very worried. I know you are not in this category... lol

I am not criticising your personal affirmations. You have a perfect right to them..., but if they can only be tested by yourself after the event, I would put up an amber warning sign, as I would do for myself.

Peace my friend... and hope.
 
Dear Blue

Blue said:
though I always worry when people start making transcendental-type claims as a basis for their affective beliefs. I worry that they border on delusional.

Good job that I don't have beliefs then, I have views that change daily.....

Blue said:
Perhaps it is because I have sometimes had to deal with the wholly delusional believers, in a medical and psychlogical context.

Yes I know a lot of the medical profession that are delusional, big smiles! thank GOD that Princes Charles is now backing a group at the Royal College to bring in a new spiritual paradigm into medicine,

Blue said:
When they reach the stage of declaring themselves a God upon Earth

Well Jesus said 'did I not tell you that 'Ye are GOD's? We are the creators, it is also part of the divine plan but that is another story!


Blue said:
I am not criticising your personal affirmations. You have a perfect right to them..., but if they can only be tested by yourself after the event.

Peace my friend... and hope.

Well they have been tested after the event, I was indeed saved from the medical profession and now I help others to take their power back and save themselves.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
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