Original Sin

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by BigJoeNobody, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Well we can, but the point is you don't accept the Traditional Christian metaphysic nor the Traditional Christian idea of 'the mystical', nor do you allow it, so really we're at Aquinas' impasse: "(one) can dispute with one who denies its principles, if only the opponent will make some concession; but if he concede nothing, (one) can have no dispute with him, though (one) can answer his objections." (ST I-I, Q1 a8).

    Or, as ACOT and others might say, "Here we go again... "
     
  2. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    ? really? and where do you get that. I'm not saying it is accurate or not, nor am I making a case for what I said, just never heard a claim that Satan had an argument. a disagreement maybe. I can agree it is meerly speculation, and given that it is not expressly stated all anyone can do is guess. The lessons of it are numerous. trying to sum it down to 1 lesson is like describing a person with 1 word. Impossible. There are clear ones (ie. don't disobey God's Commands, God will punish you for your transgressions if you transgress his limits. Past that I think you would be hard pressed to prove that the story of Adam and Eve was not recorded to inform people of their weakness, naivness, or
    no offense meant but can you point me to 10 people who agree 100% on doctrine of Christianity?
     
  3. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Can one point to 10 people who agree 100% on ANYthing?
     
  4. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Okay I get that. Let me try coming at this from a different angle. Society grants us rights and freedoms and prohibits wrongs. But we are allowed (indeed expected) to understand the why's and wear fore's of the rights and the wrongs.

    God did not do this. He simply stated don't do this. Even though God knew Satan would attempt to trick Adam and Eve into disobeying. And how did Satan do that? He gave reasons and examples, false ones, of course, but an explanation never the less.

    Seems to me God should have given Adam & Eve the armor of an explanation why they shouldn't do something, so they had something to compare to Satan's guiles. He didn't. A&E were left with nothing to counter Satan's arguments.

    It's like teaching a child about not touching a hot stove. One can say simply DO NOT TOUCH the hot stove.
    Or
    One can say do not touch the hot stove because you will burn yourself and be in great pain.

    In the first example, just by saying don't do it, it creates a question in the child's mind 'Why not?' Why am I forbidden to do this? For which they might decide to investigate. In the second example they have the knowledge of what the consequences are and are very likely going to obey because they don't want to get hurt.
     
  5. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    just to prove you wrong and be the "devil's advocate" of the situation... I'm pretty sure I can point to 10 people without trying and point ot 10 people who agree 100% that murdering an innocent child is wrong. :D
     
  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    wait... did we just agree somewhat? argh... what is this world coming to :p
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Post withdrawn.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I think you'll find that every theist tradition has its solution to the paradox.

    The Judeo/Christian solution is that God could do away with evil easily. Take away from man the capacity of self-consciousness and self determination, and evil vanishes like a puff of smoke.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Could I ask you to refresh your memory and re-read Genesis 2 and 3?

    It seems you're unaware of the dialogue between God and man, and between Satan and Eve, because that's where I'm getting the stuff I'm talking about.

    LOL, I could point to hundreds! Don't let the noise of those who think they know better tell you otherwise.

    No offence, old chum, but I could ask the same of Islam. If you said 'yes', I'd claim they'd been programmed!
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I'm sorry DA, but this is simply reading stuff into the text.

    Remember the Bible wasn't written for a post-modern hyper-critical mindset. Also it was written at a time when one didn't question authority – be it husband/father, Lord of the Manor, King, Emperor – so God's "Don't do it" was sufficient in itself and needed no explanation or validation or justification.

    Generally I think there's two ways of reading any Sacra Doctrina. Given that texts like the Vedas and the Upanishads, the Tao or the Sutras etc., have been around for some time, and are generally regarded as having something constructive to say about the human condition, then I tend to assume that if it makes sense it makes sense, and if it doesn't then it's most likely I haven't understood it. I think that's the wiser course. That doesn't mean one is obliged to believe it, it's not a proof, but it is a reasoned argument. By the same token, I could rubbish those same texts: The Tao Te Ching opens with "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao" – well game over then, what's the point of saying anything more?

    Surely the word of God is enough to counter any argument? The background idea about the JudeoChristian God is that God could make himself understood, and that man was adequately informed to make the right choice. I think we're getting carried away and being a bit too literal here, in trying to find ways to get A&E off the hook and missing the point.
     
    A Cup Of Tea likes this.
  11. EdgyDolmen

    EdgyDolmen Well-Known Member

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    Hello Thomas
    Epicurus asked a question that certainly poses as a paradox. All explanations or solutions to that paradox can be refuted and from there we have a circular argument. As to free will - I was simply giving a basic timeline. I can't find free will in the bible so I used Epicurus to pose that line.
     
  12. EdgyDolmen

    EdgyDolmen Well-Known Member

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    Thomas Re 51
    Due to what I assume are server errors the only post I had from you was the one I replied too - now I see several. However I keep getting http 500 error or a locked screen so I give up. Thanks for your input. I may try later...ED
     
  13. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    Sorry to hear that, ED. Thanks for letting me know. I'm surprised to hear you're experiencing errors at the moment since the server log isn't showing anything. I'll keep looking into it to see what's up. Hopefully the issue will be resolved shortly. Anyone else getting server errors right now?
     
  14. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.E)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-60E"> 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,F)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-61F"> knowing good and evil.”
    If this is the line of what your are talking about, I think me and you got very much differing information out of it. Unlike what I stated, Satan influenced Eve with the aspiration of being equal to God. Whereas I simply said there was a lesson in this situation that they had to learn. Not that the fruit gave them this knowledge, but rather that they learned to fear Satan's influence.


    BTW there is a lot here in Genesis I do not agree with directly, the fact that God had to ask them where they were. If he did, that would be rhetorical in nature if he is all knowing. The same with his surprise, if this is so he is bound by time, a construct of this existance.


     
  15. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I'm not sure what it is, but I get them all the time... sometimes even on the main screen...
     
  16. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    Bummer. I was hoping that the host's server re-syncing would impact us less but I guess not. Thanks for letting me know, BJN.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Quite possibly. The way I read it is that Eve knew enough to know that either God or the serpent was lying.

    OK. But I disagree. Eve knew to fear, but she also knew the allure of the fruit ...

    There are all manner of reasons put forward as to why it was 'necessary' for Adam and Eve to Fall, all of them trying to justify the basic act of disobedience, as if God was holding something back that would prevent them from realising their potential.

    Again, I think we're being too literal here.

    Quite often, I find contemplating the paradox is the key to further insight. That's been my experience, anyway. Try looking at it from the standpoint of: 'I know God knows, so what is the scribe pointing to?'

    And Steve – I've been getting errors pop up while I'm composing on screen since 10.00 this morning ...
     
  18. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    According to my belief system, Genesis has been re-written down through the centuries. I do not believe the version of Genesis we see today is the original version.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    But then, I don't think Theosophy has any evidence to that end, has it? Nor, I presume, any idea of what the supposed 'original version' might have said?

    Fragments of Genesis found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, including the first verses, match the current Biblical texts, so we can assume no-one's tinkered with the text after about 300BC – assuming the scrolls are that old, they might not be. But the point is the scrolls contain numerous Biblical texts, and no sign of difference, so personally I think the idea of a rewrite is highly unlikely.
     
  20. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I agree 100% as I don't believe the scribe meant to decieve or make it incorrect. He was working with his own knowledge of an account. So what is your measure. I used to try just thinking what could it possibly mean and picking the one who fit what I was taught best. But this is relying on someone elses interpretaion. Now I look to the Quran. When I read the Bible, I can relate all the lessons taught into clear examples of those teachings. For me the Quran confirms most of the Bible, and corrects other parts into a singular clear statement. Hopefully I don't need to say this but I will, I am not expecting anyone to attempt to see it my way, just giving my opinion.
     

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