In What Way Was the Bible Corrupted?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Amica, Dec 2, 2015.

  1. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I would say you think he had a vision, but Quran and Hadith say he had a trip to Jannah and Jahennem (SP?). This kind of difference in thought of possibility stalls many discussions in interfaith. If you don't believe in an actual God, then I doubt you will understand the idea of a actual place for our afterlife, much less that a man chosen by The God as his prophet would/could visit it.

    is it not possible these stories are true and they weren't accepted based on later churches disputing Mouhammed's (PBUH) prophethood? or that they were simply unable to understand an act outside of nature. What makes them inaccurate? Would you always say lack of evidence makes something false? If a murderer actually murdered someone but the evidence wasn't sufficient is it not possible that he committed the act?

    excuse me if I misunderstand your meaning of Quite, but are you saying that because he didn't confirm that which the Quran says is false that it casts doubt on Mouhammed (PBUH). I can understand an argument from a Christian perspective saying that they think that might be the reason the stories of his travels to heaven are false, but not the way I just mentioned.
     
  2. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    There are denominations that do believe in 3 Gods, there are some that believe that Jesus (PBUH) is a prophet and nothing more, the range of Christian beliefs is quite extensive.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Did he leave his body? If it wasn't a vision, wasn't astro travel, did he disappear for a period of time and when he returned he related this story? What were the mechanics that his friends saw when he went on this trip?
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Not on that basis, they were known of and rejected long before the Prophet came along.

    Which ones are those? And there were none in the time of the Prophet. The idea that Christians believed in three gods is erroneous.

    Again, you’d have to look at the beliefs in the times of the Prophet for relevance. The most prevalent opinion in the region was Nestorian or Coptic Christianity, but both those believed in Christ as the Son of God and the Third Person of the Trinity, so if the Prophet was rejecting Christian doctrine, it would have been that of the mainstream, rather than that of minor groups.

    Probably moreso today in America than in the Prophet’s time.
     
  5. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Some Muslims believe the Mi'raj was a bodily ascension; some Muslims believe the Mi'raj was a spiritual ascension. It seems Joe believes in the former view. For the latter view one can look up Sufism.
     
  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I tend to side more with it, however I don't profess that either is absolutely true. I simply am not knowledgeable enough to say one way or the other.
    I'm going to sum up the response to most of your post with responding to this one line... The Quran is a revelation for all time (as we believe it), so future ideas would have to be covered as well. The fact or at least idea that these ideas didn't exist then by no means invalidates the fact that it would need to be covered for future generations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism
    Tri-theism developed in MID-6th Century... hmmmm... Around Alexandria.... hmmm... Now I will admit this is Wikipedia, and as of right now I'm not researching much past that.
    They were rejected based on what? the fact that it isn't recorded in the Bible? Or that noone came along that witnessed them or at least none that are credible enough to make it through the council. It does seem interesting that although Christians largely accept Jesus (PBUH) as part of God, they never felt the need to gather the stories of his life from his own mother. Seems John might would have recorded some of her stories at some point after Jesus' (PBUH) ascension. I'm sure the Book of Mary would have been fascinating and filled with things people based solely in facts they can see would reject in a heartbeat.
     
  7. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    But let's not shut the door just yet, Thomas. What are your thoughts about Roger Haight, a Catholic theologian? I noticed some interesting quotes from Haight that emphasize the symbolic understanding of Christian ideas in the first Christian community:

    ". . . one finds no doctrine of an immanent trinity in the New Testament, that is, a doctrine depicting the inner reality of God as differentiated . . . The language of the New Testament represents God at work in the world for human salvation in 'economic' terms such as 'Word', 'Wisdom', 'Angel of the Lord', 'Spirit', 'Son of Man', and so on. This language is often described as functional, experiential, relational, and narrative; it recounts the experience of God's saving action for us in history."

    "Jewish tradition was quite familiar with the personification of various symbols representing God's action in the world. A most influential example of this is the personification of God's wisdom or Sophia. But whereas personification is recognized as figurative speech, hypostatization represents a certain literalization of it . . . the making of an idea or a concept or a figure of speech into a real thing, or entity."
    As Christian theology developed there was "the hypostatization of symbolic language about God . . . making an idea or a concept of a real thing." This literalization was probably something the first Christian community didn't engage in. Haight continues, highlighting later developments:

    "Wisdom is no longer a linguistic symbol referring obliquely to an attribute of God, Logos is no longer a figure of speech but a distinct being; Spirit is no longer a constructive exercise of the human poetic imagination that metaphorically depicts the effects of God as the invisible power of the wind, but a literal something."
    Despite this, Haight seems to affirm later Christian theological developments:

    "Surely Jesus did not display any consciousness that he had two natures and was hypostatically united to the divine Word."

    "Historical research into Jesus seems to impel the following thesis: later interpretations of Jesus may capture his intrinsic meaning and reality even though they may not have been part of Jesus' self-consciousness or self-understanding. In other words, one can affirm something to be the case about Jesus, especially in his relation to God or in his relation to ourselves, that was not necessarily part of Jesus' consciousness."​

    Just wondering what you think about this.

    For those not familiar with Roger Haight, I found a good summary of the controversy surrounding his book Jesus Symbol of God here. His book doesn't seem to fling vitriol, but, as the writer of the summary points out, he was doing speculative theology. Anyway, the writer says the debate has three aspects:


    Thomas wrote:

    Who dismissed them? Can you provide any quotes? Thanks.

    Also, in the Koran, yes, Christ spoke from the moment of his birth and Christ brought clay birds to life. Should these ideas be understood according to their exterior meanings? Or are there inner meanings to these words that point to something else?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  8. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    or both...
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Is the Pegasus buraq, a metaphor, or is this believed as factual? Is there writings from the prophets who he visited? And or stories of him going missing? I imagine he wasn't left alone a lot at that time.... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_Muhammad.jpg/640px-Miraj_by_Sultan_Muhammad. [​IMG]
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    The bible is not a book, it is a collection, compendium of books that were written by many authors over centuries.... The OT books were assembled and cannonized by the Jews, and is 2/3rds of the anthology...the NT is 26 books out of hundreds that were in circulation at the time...the books being discussed didn't make the cut of the 4th century Catholic church....
     
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  11. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    exactly... other than the waste of effort of typing out one of the most well known facts of the Bible's creation, it points out one major flaw (IMO)... That nowhere did any Prophet (PBUTA) or otherwise inform the populace which should be followed and which should not. The ones left out could have been just as important as the ones included. The ones included might have been as irrelevant as Shakespeare.. I am not making claims one way or the other on which books are true, or mostly true, or blatantly false. Just pointing out that the reason these stories we are discussing weren't considered true was simply because they weren't included in the books chosen in the 1st council.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Waste of effort? You asked the question...

    Was it rhetorical? Or did you intend to waste simebodues time with answers yiou already knew?

    Lol, no...they weren't included because babies don't talk, because they don't make birds of clay that fly away....

    But how about Pegasus? You believe he flew Mohamed far and wide and then to heaven?

    What about this image of Mohamed...why was it allowed, maintained? Is the reason we can't see him due to an oxygen helmet for dimensional travel?
     
  13. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    wil, I think you are decending into a state of annoyance for no reason.
    I never asked if it was a book. I asked if it was because it wasn't in the Bible.
    No I'm wanting to know quite simply WHY IT WAS REJECTED. Was there evidence against it? Did Mary deny it? What is the reason it isn't possible?
    Again, your point is invalid on the basis that you don't believe in God or Miracles outside of the ability to rationalize scientifically.
    I don't see why it couldn't happen. Again this is not in the realm of a actual living flying horse, this could very well be a creation used temporarily. And again, not something you would believe since you do not believe in a God or Miracles by said God.
    are you trying to stir the pot? Why was it allowed? Because it didn't show his face. No, it is forbidden in Islam to attempt to show the face of a Prophet, any Prophet (PBUTA)
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well wiki’s only example is John Philoponus, but he's only one person. As his tritheism revolves around the discussion of the terms ‘hypostasis’, ‘nature’, ‘essence’ and ‘substance’, whether he is a tritheist in the common sense is open to question. You’d have to understand how he’s using and arguing those terms first …

    I don’t think any traditional Christian doctrines actually speak of three Gods in the sense of polytheism, that was just a no-no from the outset.


    Based on the fact they had no provenance within the community.

    Supposing someone turns up 150 years after Mohammed died and said, "Hey, I've got these tales no-one has ever heard..."

    But they did. That’s where the nativity and childhood of Jesus of the Gospels comes from. Mary was part of the early community, was known by John and her story is recounted in greater detail by Luke. The fact that there is no mention of any childhood miracles rather suggests there were no miracles … you’d think she’d have mentioned them if there were, and the community would have made a big deal of it …
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    From a brief appraisal, I’d say he’s typical of the desire to rationalise Scripture in a post-modern environment. Like Spong and others, it appears to present a Jesus that is the image of the contemporary liberal zeitgeist.

    So on that basis I’d treat his argument the same as you might if it were directed at Islam – and his critique transfers to any religion. Haight's thesis would say that Mohammed never ‘actually’ conversed with an angel, but simply voiced his own speculations, which were picked up by his followers who made him not just a prophet, but The Prophet. By the same token, the Buddha never actually attained Enlightenment, but just spoke about the idea of of enlightenment …

    "Wisdom is no longer a linguistic symbol referring obliquely to an attribute of God, Logos is no longer a figure of speech but a distinct being; Spirit is no longer a constructive exercise of the human poetic imagination that metaphorically depicts the effects of God as the invisible power of the wind, but a literal something."
    Well quite. That is what modernity would have one believe the terms to mean, that all terms – The Lawgiver, The Saviour, The Prophet, The Enlightened – all are just figures of speech.

    "It is Haight’s conviction that it is simply no longer possible to assert the superiority of Christianity in any objective, metaphysical way."​
    Nor Islam, nor … etc ...

    So be careful, because if you endorse Haight, you're reducing your own faith-tradition to superstition and poetic exaggeration ...
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    There was no contemporary evidence for it. And The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which in some copies is written by 'Thomas the Israelite', was not written by a Jew. All the knowledge of Jewish law and custom comes from Luke, he actually copies certain verses from Luke, so that was enough to make people think ...

    There was no story to deny.

    Lots.

    There seems to be a general impression in the world that whilst canonical texts can be doubted for all manner of reasons, non-canonical texts are accepted without question. Why? Because they're non-canonical and play into the conspiracy theory.

    Scholars take great interest in Thomas, in Basilides, in Valentinus, etc., but none really suggest that these guys were right and the orthodox were wrong, but rather the interest is in looking at the breadth of thought in the times ... but that doesn't make their thinking right, and nearly all scholars agree that the provenance of the apocryphal texts is far more doubtful that the canonical, and in many cases obviously written fort self-serving purposes ... how many gnostic texts claim that 'they alone' received the 'secret teaching' of Jesus? I can think of three?

    In 2,000 years scholars will be interested in how Daesh presents Islam, but that's not to say they'll assume that Daesh was right ... or that their version of Islam is the correct one ...
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Mary deny it? The earliest books in the nt were Paul's letters to bolster up churches from afar...odds are she never read one to deny....much less the infancy books written after her life...
     
  18. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like an example of the slippery slope fallacy to me. If we say the divinity of Jesus is metaphorical, then we will inevitably believe the Buddha never attained enlightenment, we will believe c . . . w, x, y, and, finally, all faith-traditions are rendered as superstition and poetic exaggeration. I think Haight is saying these symbols mediate a reality beyond our consciousness. They don't point to illusions. These symbols unveil what was once hidden once they are properly understood. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your argument. Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion. I'll need to research his ideas more in the future before further discussion.

    You said the childhood tales of Christ from Infancy Gospel of Thomas were dismissed as fictions. Any quotes from ancient Christian sources? I'm interested in how ancient people viewed this text. When I read it a few days ago it seemed like ancient entertainment . . .
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  19. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Even Sunni hadith, according to my source, mentions Ali as an interpreter in al-Hakim al-Naysaburi's Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn:

    "The Prophet said: ‘There is one amongst you who will fight for the ta’wil [esoteric interpretation] of the Qurʾan as I have fought for its tanzil [literal revelation].’ Abu Bakr asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No’. ‘Umar asked, ‘Is it I?’. The Prophet said, ‘No, it is the one who is mending the sandal.’ The Prophet had given ʿAli his sandal to mend."​
     
  20. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    I'll get back to you on this one, Wil.
     

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