Why Do We Trust Ancient Texts as Accurate?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Devils' Advocate, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    So what!?!?!? This does not remotely address the problems I presented concerning the problems of basing doctrines and dogmas of a religion on ancient myths. I fully acknowledge the ancient world did possess wisdom and empirical knowledge, and again that is not the issue you are side stepping and ignoring.

    The Baha'i Faith acknowledges that the wisdom and spiritual beliefs are founded in Revelation as the wisdom and spiritual knowledge of the Native Americans, but again I would not base doctrines and dogmas of religion today on ancient myths of the Aztecs that practiced human sacrifice based on these myths and ancient beliefs. Unfortunately Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not acknowledge the wisdom and spiritual teachings of all cultures and religions of the world a Revelation as the Baha'i Faith does.

    Clear exaggerated what ever!?!? . . . as this does not reflect anything I ever posted concerning science. Science has never told anyone what is factual beyond the observed objective facts of our physical existence that the theories and hypothesis are based on, anyone may observe these 'facts' if they wish to.

    The problem is modern advances in science has divided Christianity on serious theological grounds and assumptions. The foundation doctrines and dogmas are based on an the assumption that the events of Genesis are literally true, and it is perfectly logical for the fundamentalists to believe the authors of the NT and the church fathers that what they believed is indeed true.

    Beliefs like Virgin Birth, the Fall, Original Sin, and the world flood may be considered problematic, but I consider it extremely severely problematic that these beliefs are indeed considered based on some degree of literal events as 'facts' by many if not most Christians.
     
  2. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.

    Which foundation doctrines and dogmas? What about those Church Fathers that read the events of Genesis allegorically? Are you suggesting these Church Fathers were going against their own foundation doctrines and dogmas? I don't follow you here. Please elaborate . . .
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    the Fall and Original Sin. By far most of the church fathers believed in some sort of literal Genesis.
     
  4. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Not to all religious people. Just the ones who are ignorant, stupid and irrational!
     
  5. Stevegp

    Stevegp Member

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    Right. But lately there has been an onslaught of prominent people painting with a broad brush against religion, per se. This is way too simplistic, both theologically and practically. There are billions of religious adherents who find great meaning and solace in their religious beliefs. I don't think this criticism should stand without exposing that the arguments offered are neither well founded nor scientific and in many cases lead to such a grim alternative which may not be apparent even to those who propose them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Again, to a certain extent I agree, but I also object to generalization here highlighted. You are also arguing from the perspective of the fallacy of 'arguing for popularity. The fact that there are billions of religious adherents who find great meaning and solace in their religious beliefs, does not conclude that they are true, or of much value other feeling good about what one believes.

    Arguments can be good, bad, indifferent from prominent and not so prominent, but unfortunately most or maybe all the arguments fall far short of any sort of convincing proof.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As I have pointed out, they're your subjective issues, they're not problems as such. You're not the first to raise the point, it's nothing new, it's been dealt with, and your statemtns owe more to polemics than problematics.

    As for myths, some are mere superstitions, some are sublime. They have to be taken in context. The Greek myths are a marvellous collection of lessons in human psychology and are as relevant today as they were then. I think the problem today is that modernity is too wedded to its own dogmas. The wise read myths as 'meta-real', saying more about ourselves than our mundane and material realities.

    I'm saying "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet 1.5).

    Nor does anyone else here. Specious argument. I support political systems, but that does not mean I support Trump.

    Oh, good grief ... not the science v religion argument again!

    I can understand you being vexed by things you don't understand, "but I consider it extremely severely problematic" that people choose to not to believe as you believe suggests a degree of religious intolerance to me ...
     
  8. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Okay now that is a strange thing to say. Taken to its logical conclusion anyone who does not believe in something would suggest a degree of intolerance in that thing according to your suggestion.
     
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  9. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Cause from where I sit it is quite the opposite. For the past couple of decades there has been an avalanche of people insisting that religion must be followed. Along with far too many in political power passing laws that favor their religious beliefs at the expense of others.
     
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Passing the Buck, and dealing directly with the problems of ancient religions with rigid unchanging doctrines and dogmas wedded to the past.

    Yes Greek myths as well as the myths of ancient cultures like those in the Bible are a marvelous collection of lessons in human psychology and are as relevant today as they were then, but that is not the issue at hand. It is Jewish tradition and beliefs that view Genesis in this context, and not the basis of doctrines and dogma.

    Greek myths are not interpreted as being literal basis for doctrines and dogma. You need to be clearer on your reference to 'modernity' being wedded to its own dogmas, because this too vague and 'high fog index' to be relevant.

    Duck, Bob and Weave, as the above has literally no relationship to the subject at hand. Your doing great with fallacies redirecting to off topic subjects. A real live Red Herring.


    Oh, good grief YES! Since many if not most Christians in someway reject science based on a literal interpretation of scripture.


    It is apparent you really do not understand or your sarcasm peaked. The substance of anything of meaningfulness deteriorated, when you resorted to the unfortunate fallacy of ad hominem, which an accusation of intolerance is not even related to any disagreements we have concerning theology.

    This clearly indicates your inability to respond intelligently and rationally to the discussion to resort to meaningless fallacies.
     
  11. Stevegp

    Stevegp Member

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    No, I'm not arguing from popularity that there is veracity to religious thinking. In fact, I think a lot of it is not reasonable. However, if there is an agenda to dissuade people from something that provides them with meaning and solace then I think it is fair to examine what worldview would be implicit in the ideas of those promoting that agenda. People may not be aware that a "chance and necessity alone" paradigm represents an autonomic worldview where the important concepts of morality, meaning, and personal freedom are essentially vacuous.
     
  12. Stevegp

    Stevegp Member

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    Right, there is some of that and it needs to be opposed as well. However, in my experience the vast majority of religious people are just ordinary people with all their foibles who find some some meaning in their religious views and have no desire to impose their beliefs on others or push an ideological agenda.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Highlighted above is problematic. The fact that beliefs provide meaning and solace is the last reason I would consider meaningful in believing any religion. This is a form of dependency or maybe co-dependency that would be problematic in all religions regardless. I will challenge all religious beliefs and non-beliefs that are problematic for more meaningful reasons, and my beliefs are likewise fair game as well.

    Yes, I believe you indeed presented an argument from popularity.
     
  14. Stevegp

    Stevegp Member

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    Just because something is meaningful may not be a good reason to cling to it, but it can give one pause if the alternative offers no real meaning at all. It can prompt a more thorough examination of the arguments and lead to a more considered decision. I think all the implications of a position should be known.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    In retrospect that might well be my over-reaction. I was just reading 'extremely severely' as over-egging the 'problematic'.
     
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  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Double post
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Simply not accepting it. It's your buck.

    Not really. Many if not most Christians don't set up an opposition between science and religion as you do.

    The doctrines and dogmas are explained without the need to reject science, so the argument doesn't stand.

    OK. Little point in continuing then.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Actually agree in part, but this is not your argument in your previous post. Also, it is highly egocentric to claim other alternative offer no meaning at all, or even lesser meaning. This would be negative highly subjective conclusions of how other people find meaning and solace in their belief system, and of course believing yours as superior, and of course lacks unbiased objectivity.

    I very much agree that ALL the implications of a position should be considered.
     
  19. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Thomas, I think this just reflects where you live. Have you ever lived in the Southern United States? Or viewed the huge following AnswersInGenesis.org has on Facebook? Over 400,000! As their illustration depicts below (which has over 8,000 likes), they see conflict between evolution and Christianity, between public education and Christianity:


    [​IMG]

    Shunyadragon lives in the Southern United States.

    It seems both of you disagree about what most Christians believe because of your locations.
     
  20. Stevegp

    Stevegp Member

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    No, I have not changed my argument. I have never argued that because something is popular or meaningful, that is an argument for its truth.

    Sure, it's my subjective opinion. If all the implications of a position are brought to light, others can make their own evaluation.
     

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