OK, but one wouldn't think that from all the debates and acrimony over the years. So from what you said, the debate is not a scientific one. So what is it? Is it merely a philosophical and/or ideological debate with a lot of data thrown in to support subjective inferences? Now clearly whether ID is science or not is a philosophical debate. But many scientists (an others) seem to go beyond that to also claim from science that ID's suggestion for teleology is nonsense. You also hear scientists and others say that God or some form of teleology is not necessary to explain anything. How would they know that?