God and the Illogical

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Noumenon, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I think you are jumping some steps from what I'm claiming to a minor conclusion. I am simply saying there is a truth, be it well established or barely known or not known. Whether 1 God, 2 gods, 3, etc or none. To determine which one we believe is true is to narrow the pool by analyzing what you accept as true and not, this doesn't mean the pool is still not there, but rather you are elimination portions of it as what comes as proof to you allows.

    Whether my way is correct or not is (excuse the saying) in the eye of the beholder. Do I have reasons for believing as I do, yes. I can argue all day every facet of my belief is true, and I probably cannot be proven wrong. I'm sure most of us here can say the same of their beliefs as they narrowed their pool of possibilities to what they believe now.
     
  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I think everything you said has been well established already, what we have been exploring since then is
    Some of us don't agree with this statement and we are at an in pass as you hold this truth as self-explanatory but I cant see why. It might only be plausible from a theology that rests on only one truth, but there are many other perspectives on paths and truths.

    I'm not so sure.
     
  3. Dan0813

    Dan0813 Member

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    Maybe I'm too stupid to follow this discussion, but what's wrong with asserting that there's an absolute truth, even though we don't agree on what that truth is? :)
     
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  4. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Nothing wrong with it, I always want to clear up when a thing is someone's opinion/faith/belief as opposed to an immutable, self-explanatory truth. There could be something like that but when I don't see it I test it. Joe and I butt our heads over these things from time to time, we have very different understandings of 'logic', 'reason' and 'truth', and there's nothing wrong with that. It might look like I'm just contrary but I actually want to understand how he sees it as "only really plausible that 1 view is correct".

    EDIT: And we both know you aren't to stupid to follow, there is some short-hand from many previous discussion.
     
  5. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I think I know where I'm losing you. My point includes the idea that there are multiple correct views, as long as they aren't mutually exclusive. for instance there can't be only 1 God and 6 Gods and both be true. There are Muslims that argue that most religions are pieces of the truth, for instance Judaism (Of which could be argued that if Islam is correct, Judaism and some forms of Christianity are as well). However it wouldn't be possible for any Abrahamic view and Ancient Greek theology to both be correct as their views would directly contradict. For instance Hinduism and Buddhism have been mixed many times without issue, in the scheme of my statement the mixture is a possibility, as is each exclusively, and each of their subdenominations and combinations of such.

    As for differences in Logic, let's be fair. Find 10 people who agree what logic is, and you have accomplished a large feat. If you can make them agree on a logical analysis, you might be a genius.
     
  6. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, I still disagree, I don't see them as sets of different rules that are correct or not. I see them as understanding the nature behind the veil as best one can in a given context. In the context of Islam, with everything that entails, one God, is true. In a Hindu context X number of Gods is true*. I don't relate the different contexts with each other because they work only within their own sphere and they are founded on unrelated axioms. And now I'm only talking about this side of the veil, I'm assuming Islam and Hindu faiths are both connected to the same metaphysical essence.

    I think we sort of hashed this one out best we can for this time? I know I got all mushy here in the last post but I lack the background to formulate anything more concrete than this. And on Logic, it's not really a big deal is it? I genuinely don't understand your reasoning at times and I have a nagging suspicion that you aren't using logic "correctly", but this is a poor format for communication and I'm not really qualified to judge either way.
     
  7. powessy

    powessy Active Member

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    God is everything that is inside of himself, whether it is logical or not.

    Powessy
     
  8. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    What do you think of the idea of there being one truth, but multiple ways of viewing and expressing that truth? For instance one faith worshiping God as a single entity, but another worshiping multiple manifestations of that entity. Are they not both still worshiping a single God?
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Your view expressed here is the principle problem of justifying any one belief 'as the correct and those that are similar are varying degrees of correct.'

    I would never recommend 'the grab and choose', but the most problematic is the emotional blind attachment (elephant held by a thread) that predominates most believers with egocentric lines of justification.

    Your injecting a distinctly humanist view into the theological process of reasons people believe, which is out of touch with reality that by far most people justify their own belief based on what they are taught.

    Statistically speaking nothing above remotely justify one belief over another. This is a clear misuse of statistics. The first thing my statistics instructor told us in graduate school is 'Statistics do not lie, but people misuse and manipulate statistics to justify their own lies.'

    All views are intrinsically flawed based on the fallible human perspective, especially ancient belief systems based on ancient cultures, and scripture, particularly Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All these belief systems claim their roots of belief in the Pentateuch, which is an evolved and redacted text from older pre-Babylonian, Canaanite, and Ugarite texts and myths, with no known author. A weak foundation has too many cracks.



     
  10. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I have actually put a lot of thought into this during my Reversion/Conversion phase. And I think where it comes down to is that IMO (See people I acknowledge it is my opinion only) there is 1 truth, Deviations such as multiple manifestations, etc. are varying degrees of truth. Is it possible that Hindus and Muslims worship the same overall God, IMO yes, at least to those who believe they are manifestations of a singular God. And those who practice religions where their practice coincides with the true way is where the theology has been mistaken over the generations of other religious development but the practice has remained and they are doing the right thing, with an error of understanding on why they do it only. I am in no place to judge anyone. If a Buddhist does as he has been taught, and has done his best to honor his God(s) then I see no reason why Allah wouldn't correct him on Judgement day and place him in heaven, and which level, I do not know either.

    Exactly... That is a point I am making... I have never once claimed my way is statistically more perfect than the next.

    please provide a point of lie, or incorrectness.... based solely on facts... and in essence the rest of your post where you are disagreeing with me is actually adding to my point. Statistically there are near infinite possibilities, but 1 complete. Whether anyone follows or knows it or not.

    by and far this is the most out of touch thing I have read, their belief is Their view of truth. Therefor their justification is that of their justification of the truth.

    I want to address the content of this paragraph separately, as I have already addressed the intent. I do understand you don't believe in the Abrahamics, nor any ancient religion. I also understand that your view doesn't allow for a view to be fully correct (and to a degree I agree, mainly that our capacity isn't large enough for understanding it all...). But that doesn't mean that you are correct about any of you assertions, you do realize that right? You telling me Islam is not correct is simply on par with me telling a Buddhist his beliefs are baseless and useless. It is an opinion, not fact. Your claim is that the Abrahamics are based on
    But what you fail to address is the other way around could equally be true. We all know Judaism was based on verbal sources for generations before text came. In Genesis it talks of the beginning of the earth, meaning that If the original author knew of this and those events, it is possible that the other groups heard the stories and adopted them into their own at some point. The fact that the author is unknown gives a good indication the ideas came from before those civilizations occured. And frankly your perpetual argument of these "facts" is nothing better than the "Christian" gentleman proselytizing in the Jewish threads. All of your posts amount to, "you all are wrong, I am right, think like me". I write a post about how all views are statistically equally possible and you basically claim I don't know how statistics work. I understand (I think) ACOT's argument, although I don't know if I can explain that what I'm saying even includes what he is claiming it excludes.
     
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    The nature of God, if God exists, would omnipotent, all-powerful and all-wise. Also all of Creation would reflect the attributes and nature of God, without contradictions. God would have power over everything, therefore Creation is as God intended, and God Created humans as evolved naturally with a will, potentially free, and fallible, which allows humans to er and yes be illogical and unreasonable.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon everything is in pencil

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    Considering the fact that humans logically justify a diverse, even conflicting views God, and even no God, therefore no, human logical understanding of God is flawed, and highly influenced by the culture and religion they were raised in or choose to believe.

    Considering this fallible conflicting diversity, God is not necessarily acknowledged for who He really be. It has nothing to do woth God's reputation.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Therefor implausible that any of us on this forum have selected that one view.
     
  14. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Which is why one must weigh in evidences. I have a reason for my choice. I didn't just guess and hope for the best.
     
  15. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    That is the ONE view that your reasoning has led you to believe. Mileage Wil Vary.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    And you think you are alone in that?

    Yes there are many that plod along with wherever they were born...but others weigh plenty of evidence.. pretty much everyone who has switched from one to another has done so... and many in this moment believe they have made the perfect decision based on everything they currently know...

    and yet again... it doesn't change anything... if there is only one true religion... if there is only one true sect or denomination... odds are against every single person who has weighed all the evidences and chose...
     
  17. Nasruddin

    Nasruddin Active Member

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    Okay, just a thought experiment: suppose we replaced the word "religion" with the phrase "love song". Wouldn't the idea of a "true love song" seem ridiculous? How could one song of love be true and another not? Eventually we would get deep into arguments about the kind of love being sung about, and whether or not the singer is authentic or putting on airs. Doesn't this whole thing sound a bit ridiculous?
     
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  18. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I like that, too! You are on a roll. :D
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I second that!
     
  20. madihakhan

    madihakhan New Member

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    God is the power and God has given us power of thinking God has created us and created our brain so tell me what is logical and illogical for God ?
     

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