Different views on astrology/planets and GOD

S

Sacredstar

Guest
Dear All

This quote from BB prompted this thread, I thought it would be good to get different views here and see how they compare.

bananabrain said:
judaism of all stripes frowns heavily on the idea of the stars actually influencing us and indeed on anything which might lead us away from the absolute sovereignty of G!D.

bananabrain
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The Dead Sea Scrolls mention astrology and the planets are also mentioned in the bible. Do we have any astrologers on the forum?

From my perspective the stars help us to get closer to GOD because they help us to understand the self and what we are here to overcome. Once we understand the self we become closer to GOD.

Hindu astrology is interesting in the importance of the North Nodes in our birth chart as it outlines our soul journey this lifetime. There is an excellent book called 'Astrology and the Soul' my book is on loan so cannot remember the author's name. Also arranged marriages are often based upon Indian astrology to locate a good match.

What is your view?

Does astrology lead us away from the absolute sovereignty of G!D.?

I guess it does it one does not accept one's own sovereignty.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
I think it's all nonsense that people make relevant, but that's just me.

Dauer
 
Dear Dauer

Is this the general view? If so how is this reconciled with the following?

"According to Sefer Yetzirah, each month has a:
letter, zodiac sign, tribe, sense, and a controlling limb."
www.inner.org

being love

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar said:
Dear Dauer

Is this the general view? If so how is this reconciled with the following?

"According to Sefer Yetzirah, each month has a:
letter, zodiac sign, tribe, sense, and a controlling limb."
www.inner.org

being love

Sacredstar
Click to expand...

At some point I'm sure bananabrain will make a more specific statement about the role of the zodiac in kabbalah, because I can't. But the general position of Judaism is that anything superstitious is not okay. More specifically from the 613 mitvot:

Not to practice onein (observing times or seasons as favorable or unfavorable, using astrology) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN166).
Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN165).
Not to consult ovoth (ghosts) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN170).
Not to consult yid'onim (wizards) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN171).
Not to practice kisuf (magic using herbs, stones and objects that people use) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN168).
Not to practice kessem (a general term for magical practices) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN167).
Not to practice the art of a chover chaver (casting spells over snakes and scorpions) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN169).
Not to enquire of an ob (a ghost) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN172).
Not to seek the maytim (dead) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN174).
Not to enquire of a yid'oni (wizard) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN173).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

So anything along those lines is forbidden. That's not to say they don't work. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But they're forbidden.

Dauer

Edit: At the same time there's evidence this wasn't always the case. Mazal tov can be translated as "good sign."
 
Dear Dauer

Thank you for your considered response.

dauer said:
But the general position of Judaism is that anything superstitious is not okay.

Not to practice onein (observing times or seasons as favorable or unfavorable, using astrology) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN166).
Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN165).
Click to expand...

Let us compare translations in the current OT (KJV)

Lev. 19:26-27

Ye shall not eat anything with blood: neither shall he use enchantment or observe times. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt they mar the corners of thy beard.

I understand the command of not eating anything with blood due to blood holding energetic memories but Jewish people do eat red meat don't they? Enchantment to me would say 'black magic' not sure about observe times or what this has to do with food. I assume the next statement is about shaving one's head and cutting one's beard, but surely this is inteferring with free will?


dauer said:
Not to consult ovoth (ghosts) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN170).
Not to consult yid'onim (wizards) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN171).
Click to expand...

Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them.


dauer said:
Not to practice kisuf (magic using herbs, stones and objects that people use) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN168).
Not to practice kessem (a general term for magical practices) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN167).
Not to practice the art of a chover chaver (casting spells over snakes and scorpions) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN169).
Not to enquire of an ob (a ghost) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN172).
Not to seek the maytim (dead) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN174).
Not to enquire of a yid'oni (wizard) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN173).
Click to expand...

Deut.18:10-11
There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or any observer of times, or any enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a neocromancer.

Egyptians like ISIS did use abuse spiritual energy so I understand this.


dauer said:
Edit: At the same time there's evidence this wasn't always the case. Mazal tov can be translated as "good sign."
Click to expand...

Maybe in the past like modern times, there was differentiation between the dark and light brothers. Some of us feel that it was abuse of spiritual energy that created the fall and hence the floods. So the messages above would be particularly relevant and potent at the time of receipt. Even now people abuse spiritual energy without realising it e.g. sending healing to someone who has not requested it.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (New International Version)

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

The words 'observing times' seem to be missing from the NIV.

Personally I have only been forbidden once, I was forbidden to meet with a man. Also received stern warnings one in relation to a man and the other I was asked to 'eat no meat with hooves'.

being love

Sacredstar
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sacredstar said:
Dear Dauer

Thank you for your considered response.


Let us compare translations in the current OT (KJV)
Click to expand...

The KJV is a horrible translation. If you're looking to cite something I'll have more respect for, try this:

http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255

It also has Rashi commentary. There's a version of the JPS floating around online, but it's the old version and might as well be the KJV.
Lev. 19:26-27

Ye shall not eat anything with blood: neither shall he use enchantment or observe times. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt they mar the corners of thy beard.

I understand the command of not eating anything with blood due to blood holding energetic memories but Jewish people do eat red meat don't they? Enchantment to me would say 'black magic' not sure about observe times or what this has to do with food. I assume the next statement is about shaving one's head and cutting one's beard, but surely this is inteferring with free will?
Click to expand...

Enchantment is the English word. Here's the text from that site I linked up there with Rashi Commentary:

26. You shall not eat over the blood. You shall not act on the basis of omens or lucky hours.

You shall not eat over the blood [This verse is] expounded in many different ways in Sanhedrin (63a) [as follows]: (a) It is a warning that one must not eat from the flesh of holy sacrifices before the dashing of the blood; (b) It is a warning against [anyone] who eats from an ordinary animal before its soul [contained in its blood] has [fully] departed; and in many more [ways this verse is expounded there].

You shall not act on the basis of omens like those who interpret [the sounds or actions of] a weasel or birds as omens [for good or bad], - [Torath Kohanim 19:71; Sanh. 66a], or [like those who interpret] bread falling from his mouth or a deer crossing his path [as signs for certain things]. — [Sanh. 65b]

You shall not act on the basis of… lucky hours [The expression ?????????? ] denotes times (???????) and hours, that one would say, “Such and such a day is auspicious to begin your work,” or, “Such and such an hour is unlucky to embark [on a journey].” - [Sanh. 65b]


27. You shall not round off the corner of your head, and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard.

You shall not round off the corner of your head This refers to someone who [cuts his hair in such a way that he] makes [the hair on] his temples even with that behind his ear and on his forehead [i.e., the front hairline], thereby causing [the hairline] surrounding his head to become a circle, since the main hairline behind the ears is at a much higher level than [the hair on] his temples. — [Mak. 20b]

the edge of your beard [meaning:] The end of the beard and its borders. And these are five: two on each cheek at the top [edge of the cheek] near the head, where [the cheek] is broad and has two “corners” [i.e., extremities, one near the temple and the other at the end of the cheek bone towards the center of the face]-and one below, on the chin, at the point where the two cheeks join together. - [Torath Kohanim 19: 74; Mak. 20b]
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How does this interfere with free will? Free will means we can choose between right and wrong. This tells what is right and what is wrong.



Deut.18:10-11
There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or any observer of times, or any enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a neocromancer.

Egyptians like ISIS did use abuse spiritual energy so I understand this.
Click to expand...

10. There shall not be found among you anyone who passes his son or daughter through fire, a soothsayer, a diviner of [auspicious] times, one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

who passes his son or daughter through fire This was the Molech worship. They made two bonfires on either side and passed the child between them both. — [San. 64b]

a soothsayer What is a soothsayer? One who takes his rod in his hand and says [as though to consult it], “Shall I go, or shall I not go?” Similarly, it says (Hos. 4:12),“My people takes counsel of his piece of wood, and his rod declares to him.” - [Sifrei]

a diviner of [auspicious] times Heb. ????????. Rabbi Akiva says: These are people who determine the times (???????) , saying, “Such-and-such a time is good to begin [a venture].” The Sages say, however, that this refers to those who“catch the eyes (????????) ” [i.e., they deceive by creating optical illusions].

one who interprets omens [e.g.,] bread falling from his mouth, a deer crossing his path, or his stick falling from his hand. — [Sifrei , San. 65b]


11. or a charmer, a pithom sorcerer, a yido'a sorcerer, or a necromancer.

or a charmer One who collects snakes, scorpions or other creatures into one place.

a pithom sorcerer This is a type of sorcery called pithom . The sorcerer raises the [spirit of the] dead, and it speaks from his [the sorcerer’s] armpit.

a yido’a sorcerer Here the sorcerer inserts a bone of the animal called yido’a into his mouth, and the bone speaks by means of sorcery. — [Sifrei , San. 65a]

or a necromancer As, for example, one who raises [the dead spirit] upon his membrum, or one who consults a skull. — [Sifrei , see San. 65b]
Click to expand...


Maybe in the past like modern times, there was differentiation between the dark and light brothers. Some of us feel that it was abuse of spiritual energy that created the fall and hence the floods. So the messages above would be particularly relevant and potent at the time of receipt. Even now people abuse spiritual energy without realising it e.g. sending healing to someone who has not requested it.
Click to expand...

I should have clarified. The people were not following the mitzvot. There are even some ancient synagogues with zodiacs in them. But the mitzvot still stood.


Dauer
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Dear Dauer

Very interesting thank you for taking the time to reply. Apologies for the KJV it is the only hard copy that I have, (it was age 8 birthday present) time for an update I feel.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Namaste all,


Buddhism, as a whole, views astrology and other divinational methods as Wrong Living and advises that one not engage in that praxis if they are intent on making progress in the Buddha Dharma.

we, like our Jewish friends, are not too keen on praxis that are viewed as superstitious.
 
Dear Vajradhara

Thank you for your post.

Vajradhara said:
Buddhism, as a whole, views astrology and other divinational methods as Wrong Living and advises that one not engage in that praxis if they are intent on making progress in the Buddha Dharma.

we, like our Jewish friends, are not too keen on praxis that are viewed as superstitious.
Click to expand...

Interesting that the dictionary says that superstition is 'an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear.' So presumably as ignorance and fear disappears superstition ceases to be a problem.

I find it interesting especially as Kuan Yin appears to so many different people who never even knew who she was until her continued appearance. If this is against Buddhist teachings why does she appear and speak to people?

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
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