Islam and Art

Discussion in 'Islam' started by wil, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Indeed I can - and I'm not Sunni, but my rejection of certain Hadith is not based upon Secularism or Westernism, although I have to accept the fact that I am influenced or affected, to some degree, by the culture I am raised in - as are my Eastern Brothers & Sisters. Many of my beliefs & practices do not jive with Secularism or Westernism.

    You are correct, I'd have some trouble in certain "Muslim Countries". I've had a bit in some circles here, but I'm still active in my Community - doesn't matter.

    I believe my rejection of some (not most) Hadith is mostly based upon a desire to be in line as much as I can with Quran. If it seems to contradict Quran - I'm not with it.

    Generations of social & family pressure do not figure into my approach to and perception of Islam. I've certainly been accused of being "poisoned by the West", and I'm not messed up about that - maybe I am a little - but maybe the same can be said for those of the East?

    Aside from sometimes not corresponding with Quran, there are other reasons to be very cautious about Hadith - here is an example:

    Narrated by Abu Huraira "The Prophet said 'The best chairity is that which is given while one is rich and a giving hand is better than a taking one, and you should start first to support those who depend on you - a Wife says 'you should either provide me with food or divorce me' a slave says 'you give me food and enjoy my service' a son says 'give me food, to whom do you leave me?'". The people asked "O Abu Huraira! Did you hear that from The Measenger of Allah?" and he said "No, it is from my pocket".
    (Sahih Bukhari vol 7)

    This is an account about a person, who transmitted over 5000 Hadith of The Prophet, admitting he fabricated a Hadith, and this is included in what is considered by most Muslims to be the most authentic collection Hadith.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  2. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    The 5 pillars of Islam are from the Hadiths & some of them differ & are even contradictory to the Quran. e.g

    1.Sahada in Quran is only "There is no God but Allah". This is the most important proclamation of Deen. If Allah had wanted, he would have revealed the verse on Shahada with "Muhammad is the last messenger along it". It is strange that prophet Muhammad himself added his name along Allah's (as per the hadith). So for Muslims, now the Shahada is incomplete with just "There is no God but Allah". How is that?

    2. Allah in the Quran clearly named 3 salats but in the hadith its 5. Muslims follow the hadith. Why?

    3. During Hajj , Muslims touch & kiss the Black stone/Yemeni corner rock to relieve them of their Sins. Isn't such act "shirk" as per the Quran?

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    rgds
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  3. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Four of the Five Pillars are very clearly mentioned in Quran:

    2.) Salah
    3.) Zakah
    4.) Siyam
    5.) Hajj

    Shahada
    "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is The Messenger of Allah" is specifically mentioned in Hadith. There is overwhelming accounts of people proclaiming this Shahada during the time of the Prophet (saww). If you read the stories of the Prophets in Surahs 11 & 7 you will see that they announced to their people "believe in Allah, you have no god but Him and follow me." Acceptance of The Messenger always accompanied The Message, and this is true of Muhammad as well. The Hadiths about the Shahada seem valid and authentic. As I've said, I accept most Hadith.

    "There is no god but Allah"indicates one's belief in the Oneness of Allah - the second part indicates the acceptance of The current Message and the acceptance of The Messenger as the Example (33:21) to be followed, which is what Hadith is about. It is the purpose of The Messenger to explain and demonstrate The Message.

    The kissing of the Black Stone is fine if that's what a person feels like doing, but if they do it as though it is a part of the Deen then they would be guilty of Bid'at (Innovation) - not Shirk - and if they do it believing it removes sin then it's also Khuraf (Superstition).

    The details of all these pillars come from Hadith; all the details of Salah (what is said at each position, the number of units for each one etc).

    The Five times (Fajr, Zuhr, 'Asr, Maghrib, Isha) are indicated in the following verses:

    24:58 - Fajr, Zuhr, Isha
    (some say Maghrib too)

    11:114 - Zuhr & 'Asr

    2:238 - 'Asr

    17:78 - 'Asr, 'Maghrib, Fajr

    30:17 - Fajr Maghrib, Zuhr, 'Asr

    50:39 - Fajr, Zuhr, 'Asr, Isha, & Tahajjud

    Tahajjud is Nafl (Optional), but it was Fard (Obligatory) for The Messenger
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  4. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    So you accept & reject hadiths that are Sahih as you deem like. I have nothing to debate then.
    Anyway the complete proclamation "There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God." doesn't exist in the Quran but in the hadith only.

    They do do it believing it erases their sins because thats what the Sunnah teaches. Just validates my point.

    Suwaid b. Ghafala reported:
    I saw Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissing the Stone and clinging to it and saying: I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having great love for you.
    Reference : Sahih Muslim 1271 a The Book of Pilgrimage
    In-book reference : Book 15, Hadith 277
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 7, Hadith 2916


    Ibn Ubaid bin Umair narrated from his father:
    "Ibn Umar was clinging on the two corners (in a manner that I had not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet doing) so I said: 'O Abu Abdur-Rahman! You are clinging on the two corners in a manner that I have not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet clining.' So he said: 'I do it because I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "Touching them atones for sins." And I heard him saying: "Whoever performs Tawaf around this House seven times and he keeps track of it, then it is as if he freed a slave." And I heard him saying: "One foot is not put down, nor another raised except that Allah removes a sin from him and records a good merit for him."
    Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 959 The Book on Hajj
    In-book reference : Book 9, Hadith 153
    English translation : Vol. 2, Book 4, Hadith 959



    These are interpretations of the Quran to validate the 5 times prayers in the Hadith. Thats why they had to search all over the Quran to count & get the tally they wanted. No where in the Quran it says FIVE.
    Thats why some Shias pray 3 times only.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  5. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I am Shi'a (Ja'fari), and I do five Prayers a day - usually at three times. Fajr (Subh) then I do 'Asr right after Zuhr and I do Isha right after Maghrib. There are times I will space them out, but mostly not. The Ismaili, I believe, only pray three prayers. The Quran doesn't say Pray three times or five times, but the times are indicated, as referenced. These are time frames Zuhr and 'Asr connecting as do Maghrib and Isha.

    The word wudu is not mentioned in Quran either, but it is Commanded and described in Quran (5:6). Also the word Tawheed ("Oneness") - the greatest, most essential belief in Islam, is not used in Quran, but Tawheed ("Oneness") is taught throughout the whole Quran. Ahad and Wahid, from the same root as Tawheed, are used, but not Tawheed itself. These words are of common usage among Muslims.

    As for the Black Stone, it is permissible to kiss it if one wishes (as I said), but it is not part of Hajj, and if it is treated as a condition of Hajj it is Bid'at. It would be Shirk if worshipped, but I don't think anyone is doing that.

    In Al Kafi it is recorded that Ali ibn Muhammad narrated from Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Ibrahim from Abu Abdullah ibn Salih who said "I saw him (The 12th Imam) near the Black Stone while people were clinging to it. The Imam (as) said 'they are not commanded in this condition'."

    The kissing and touching of the Black Stone is not a part of the Hajj Ritual. It is allowable, if you can get to it, as an expression of love for Allah, but if you never touch it at all and complete Hajj as prescribed - meeting the requirements - your sins are forgiven by Allah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  6. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Muslims - it is important that we do not allow Sacred Sites, Monuments and Islamic things to become talismans.

    I often kiss my Quran out of love and gratitude to Allah The One, but kissng it will not wipe away my sins or make me a better Muslim. Allah Al Ghafur (The Most Forgiving) forgives us for sincerely repenting to Him and striving to to be & do better. Kissing and touching Sacred Things do not accomplish this - worshipful obedience to Allah Almighty does. Art in Islam is feared by some Muslims for this very reason, but art can be a beautiful expression of one's love, honor, respect and gratitude in Islam.

    We have no magical trinkets, amulets or icons - such things are Bid'at and we must not allow them to pollute our consciousness.

    The Sacred Sites of Hajj are called Sha'a'ir ("Symbols") of Allah (5:2 & 2:158) and Mash'ar ("Sacred Monument" - 2:198). Both of these words come from the same root that the word shu'uri ("consciousness") comes from - as does the word shi'r ("poetry").

    This root word - sha'ara - means "to know", "to perceive", "to notice", "to recognize", "to grasp intuitively", "to have an intuitive understanding", "to feel", "to compose poetry".

    These Symbols and Monuments are meant to move us, convey an understanding to us and raise our consciousness - as various forms of art can do to a lesser degree.

    It's interesting that the word Sha'eerah ("Initiation") comes from this same root. A rite using symbols to inspire, evoke and awaken the consciousness (shu'uri). The only star mentioned by name in Quran is Shi'raa (Sirius) - 53:49 - a star which has, and still does, play a role in many initiation rites and Shi'raa is also from this root.

    I presume my Brothers and Sisters know this already - just a Reminder to us.

    And Allah Ar-Rabbush-Shi'raa knows best!
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  7. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    Basically your are preaching to all Muslims to reject the hadiths on kissing black stone to erase sins. ;) Not only you, even Sunnis during any discussion nowadays especially online just say they reject or accept them at their whim.
    The fact is these authentic Sunnah have been accepted for hundreds of years but now current generation Muslims find many of it to be very "unintelligent" & embarrassing.

    Now look at the logic you used to justify why you don't trust the hadiths even sahih one. How about applying the same logic for the Quran?
    None of Hafs hadiths have been accepted as all scholars agreed that his narrations are untrustworthy & plagiarized. Yet The Quran copy you have now was transmitted by Hafs & it is supposedly pure & pristine.
     
  8. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    If anyone has noticed, I'm using this calligraphy for myself here. Calligraphy is the most widely used art form in the Islamic Community.

    This star form says:

    بِسۡمِ اللهِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِيۡمِ

    "Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem"

    Meaning -

    "In The Name of Allah The Compassionate, The Merciful"

    Also translated "Most Gracious" & "Most Merciful"

    Sometimes Rahman is translated "Beneficent"

    This phrase is at the beginning of every Surah of Quran, except Surah Nine, which, many believe, has to do with the numeric code of 19 - the "missing Bismillah" is found in 27:30.

    The two Names Rahman (Beneficient, Most Gracious, Compassionate) and Raheem (Merciful) are both forms of the word Rahmah (Compassion/Mercy) - which comes from the same root as Rahm - meaning "Womb".

    IMG_0044.PNG
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Interesting
     
  10. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    I notice an implacable contempt toward Islam in all of your posts. Regardless the replies, your contempt remains. I notice you cast Islam as "dysfunctional" in your opening post. You also give the typical orientalist sidevent about Iran being the exception, they are, you know, just groovy. No, seriously, Iran is top top, it got dragged down by the other beardy Muslims that you dislike etc. etc. This is a trope l see everywhere, and it is used to justify an implacable dislike of Islam by saying "hey Iran's okay though!".


    For what it's worth:
    1. There is no dysfunctional relationship with the arts. There is Islamic art. Let me guess: you no-likey.
    2. The creation of living sentient things has always been forbidden to us since the religion was completed, whether people engaged in it or not, whether existing works were allowed or not.

    It really is as simple as that. Your entire post answered in two points. Please will you take it on board.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021

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